Season 9 Episode 18: Is Monogamy A Thing Of The Past?

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The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world. Hey everyone welcome to another episode of dateable a show all about modern dating now in the nineties is we've done this podcast we've covered so many perspectives CBS on dating ranging from the traditional to the non traditional and of course we've talked about the stats of people getting married leader in life or if that all and to some are challenging the notion of monogamy while exploring relationships outside this quote unquote norm. Rice is our guest of honor for this episode. She's thirty four years old old. She's lived in San Francisco for two years originally from Huntsville Alabama and is Holly Amorous. Now this is going to be a very interesting journey story. About how how you grew up in the south religious to now libertarian sex positive feminist and Pollyanna Murray. Let's talk about how this all started. You grew up in the south. Where we're we're your views on dating and relationships when you're younger true love waits so I met one of my boyfriends in high school at an absence retreat? Actually what another retreat for there were when I was growing up and I love. Oh Yeah Southern Baptists. So you met your first boyfriend there now. Medway medavoy friend there and what happened from this relationship. Did you end up a lot of dry. Humping a lot of dry on I. I officially last night in Virginia my wedding night at twenty two years old while it was it to this guy or someone different. Were College Boyfriend. Was it. When you were growing up that you felt like absence was the right thing to do? I was always very horny child so it was important to me to have a good marriage and a good sex life and I was taught. This is the way to do it. And I'm not one behalf ask things. How'd you know you were born child? Dry I'm guessing. I wouldn't have described as the way the way my dad describing was boy crazy. Okay So that was a clue. Did you ever fantasize about what sex would be of course. How does that compare to when you did actually have sex on your wedding night? We the data for three years when we got married and had done everything but and I just thought crossing that line would be this big deal and as it turns out early not it was a technicality. More than anything and so when you're whistling for three years I don't know you're excited about having whatever that sex looks like the way you are. When you're I dating and so in that way it didn't expect it to be momentous because I know number three years so you didn't get married to have sacs? It was more just now. It was available. I got married married to save my parents. Shame Livingston. Oh okay were ready to have side. I mean I kind of over eight a little bit. By the time we got an area it was like this is good. What we have going is pretty good and when you say everything but was there but almost Muslim religious thing I just not into that okay? So how long were you married for years for years. So kind of what happened there. I mean it was a long evolution of things kind of taking me away from faith is I had conceived of it. When I was in high school? My sister came out of the closet. I started digging into you. Wear my religious upbringing. Came up against my feminists believe so. By the time I was ready to get divorced. I wanted to go to counseling the whole time. We were married. He he didn't WANNA go. He said he would go. But only was with our pastor and I south. They're talking to our pastor and his wife about what I was unhappy with in our relationship and and they only wanted to talk about my relationship. Jesus and it was clear that my happiness came way to preserving the marriage. I and my relationship with Jesus was pending on the marriage and so I had to decide to are believed this enough to sacrifice my happiness knowing what I know about my sister and about you know what scripture actually is this and I was like no I don't think so kind of broke up with the Church and my husband at the same time got it. So was it the urge because I know like being poly-amorous now is that you're with multiple people. was there an urge. There was an independent to that. Just things weren't working. I mean it's amazing. How you confuse your cell wing reality is inconvenient because I had told myself I just don't have the sex drive and that's why I don't want to have sex with my husban- then I was fantasizing by my co workers? I didn't really fit in my Neronha. There wasn't convenient Dan so just ignore that now looking back I'm like oh I was very horny. And not particularly monogamous is very jealous. Always even talked to somebody else. I would get freaked out.

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I realized I was projecting my problems with monogamy onto him so these things become clear in hindsight but not not when you're in it but as soon as I was like I wanna around don't with the I mean yeah but I was immediately in a relationship with someone else as soon as I got divorced little bit before to be to be honest and this is still an Alabama all in Alabama and I was like listen and I really love you and I want this to work out but I need to war around before Dutton gone like this is just the thing that's important to me I never got to have it early. Twenties it's my late twenty S. So you know at some point it needs to happen and so he was like. Have you heard Marie and I was like not really. This is Allah Bama's. He's from New York. They like. What do people even who around in Alabama? So it's not an issue here. Yeah no they're not the slut pride. It is not a a strong as in San Francisco for sure but yeah I'd happens because this guy from New York introduce you to Pollyanna Maury and had you heard of it before. Probably but not that I can remember. It wasn't a thing I was thinking about. That's for sure with C. poly-amorous now okay. So he's just something he heard about. Yeah like Pretty Slutty to SPO. How did you guys like explorer polly relations? We're probably for several years. And then how did you end up where you are today here in San Francisco. Oh Oh man. I was dating to software engineers long distance from D C coming from Alabama to DC with the sky from New York. I've been in. DC for five years ars was ready for a change dating. DC is not easy as a heterosexual mostly heterosexual woman by sexual and. Yeah so I moved out here to be with them and that was two years ago the long distance people long distance. Did you even meet them. And who of them. So one hilariously. I went to high school with and Group religious. Yes us as both were ballots sooner than me but we got there eventually. Both of the other through twitter twitter twitter through de the Amazon instant very two thousand twelve. Yeah Yeah Wow this is to San Francisco to be with the software engineers and then you discover there's ten thousand more here and then what happened. Oh so with the boyfriend away from the time no we had we had broken up. It's weird some relationships are better long distance some relationships when you when it's the daily daily thing your different personal vacation you're a better person. Usually we know what it is to vacation with someone or visit. Someone is very different than what it is to live with them or see them. Multiple time is weak and so right they were not right for me as configured. I'm so close with both of them. Why did you and the boyfriend break up? I mean we had some dysfunctions for sure her and rather than like vase those dysfunctions neither fix them. Were break up. I just Kinda left him for another guy was seeing. Okay Gotcha why why turn to poly-amorous opposed just be open or like having sexual encounters with other people. Yeah that's a good question. Probably it was that whole wanting waiting to be like actually free and you have a lot of rules than you're not as free when when we first opened up it really was just sex. Okay if I just had a lot of sex with a lot of people and I didn't didn't really have ongoing relationships with them but as I've had a lot of that I don't really like it I don't like sex that doesn't involve feelings or connection sometimes and I'll take it if that's all that's available but my preference is to have sex that you know meaningful. Yeah interesting You're you're an interesting person and I care about you. It's not just for the sake of having sex. You actually enjoy this person right interest now that there's anything wrong with sex. It's just bodies like I think that's fantastic. And like I said I I've done. I'll do it again. I prefer that kind of Fulfilling to yeah sounds interesting Ingram for sure so you certainly interesting that you just wanted to be free. Yeah like in your poly-amorous relationships do you ever have like primary partners and then secondary very or do kind of keep everyone at the same level. I've had it all. I thought I was on higher cocoa for Awhile and then it turns taught. I really wanted a partner a primary partner. A life partner actually hurt someone very badly creating an expectation that we would be not our article and then putting them below someone who wanted a more higher over relationship with me and I think that's kind of a central tension in my life and probably not just nine line is that I want at all. I want total freedom and I WANNA total security. I want primary partner into the answerable to no one I want excitement and comfort now. I want him focused on less.

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Is figuring out what I want and more. I mean both but I'm more focused now on being humble about what I can promise people because I don't want to put anyone anyone in that situation again where they think I'm GonNa do one thing and do another but it's hard because I don't even know myself like I think I wanNA pry. I'm pretty sure I WANNA primary partner in a life partner but you know what does does that mean like. What does that cut me off from? What does that require of me? These are tough questions and I'm still trying to figure it all out now. What is kind of like your current situation? Like what's it's like a day in the life of like different partners and like do you have like a primary partner like how does that work for you. I'm GONNA moment of transition as it you know it's it's Fluid right now but I'm very grateful to be with people who are are my friends and lovers. That's always been the case so when you were like not in this state of transition as much like did you have a primary again like okay. Okay and then like how many secondary people did you have kind of at a given time probably like two to four okay. Yeah it's Kinda funny like how do you there my friend. First first and foremost We see each other however much we see each other we have sex. Whatever percentage of the time that was each other so I don't even know some of them like How would describe them? But Yeah I feel like we've heard that a lot of people like the Poly Community and people we've actually supposedly organ house to is like it's not as is like prescriptive defined defined as people that are in monogamous relationships. Like a lot of. It's like yeah. Enjoy this person as a person. I'm attracted to them. Man We fucked basically. It's it's mindful right so you want to be with that person because you want to because you feel like you're in a binding relationship. But US monogamous. People are so so stuck on the. Dr We liked to find the relationship over a thing or not does even fucking. It doesn't have a label. Probably it's not GonNa make you. Did you ever go back to being monogamous or as kind of polly the way for you. I I think so. I mean I've been monogamous for short periods when I had a partner who wanted to close up the relationship that was fine with me especially when I was in that mode of really wanting a primary partner It's not my preference but you know. Hollywood takes a lot of time and energy if I were with someone who is like. I don't really want to spend it I really want you to spend it. I'd be like yeah you know I can live without it. Not having the option would be hard but not exercising it less though So it sounds sounds like you really just want the option more. Yeah I think so. That's a Freedom Park. Yes definitely minute. animating desire throughout my life is that desire for freedom a very strong wrong value of mine so I know like with Holly Emery. A lot of people that are hardcore polly Emery Lake will say that you can learn so much about yourself in relationships and trust and communication shen all that stuff kind of do you feel like you can also learn that through monogamy or do think there is like a certain situation with polly emery that does give you more of that. learnings art. Thank you can learn everything that you can learn Maria Monogamy Kelly. Absolutely I mean think about it. What's the difference really between having an honest and open conversation with with your partner about being attracted to someone else in the context of you can't have sex with them and you can't have sex with? It's kind of the same shit right. It's like for me when I'm in a relationship. What hurt me was that they wanted to rather than whether they did or not? It's like I feel jealous and insecure that you WANNA fuck this other person so confronting those feelings than dealing with them as a couple Poland being constructive about it does it require having sex with other people that just requires being honest and so yeah I think I think everything can be achieved without primary. What I think go is that most people don't have that conversation because I don't feel like they need to attract other people are not getting the sexual needs met whatever whatever and then just kind of Grin and bear it the way for it to pass rather than taking that opportunity to grow with their partners and so it's a forcing function For a lot of this growth like police forces you to have those conversations. Yeah you're faced with the day to day exactly. Yeah I feel like sometimes I don't know I go back and forth on this. I'm in a monogamous relationship right now. Do I want to know that he's attracted to use someone else even though he's not gonna on it. Well that information helped me. Where do I would? I'd rather just not no. I don't know I go back and forth all the time. What about you Julie? Would you WANNA know. It's a tough debate. I'm like it'd be nice to know because then I don't want him to feel deprived of that mentality even even if he doesn't act upon it it'd be nice to have a release from it. Yeah then at the same time I almost feel like some people get off on being able to hide that secret like someone else. That's not my partner partner. It's out in the open than maybe the attractions. No longer there yeah. I don't think I'd WanNa know if they weren't going to act on it. I think like the part of a Pollyanna re that I do actually appreciate appreciate is that.

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It's like a way to kind of honor. Just like what you WANNA do without cheating on someone right and like having that distrust I guess in this situation. If they're not going to act on it anyways I don't know I think it would depend like if it's actually causing issues in the relationship to your point earlier like if it's like things that you're like holding back Jack and resenting and like it's causing the relationship to flourish then yeah it would wanNA know. I'd rather get it out in the open to discuss but if everything was going great besides that I don't know if it would be necessary thing to keep in mind. Is that talking about these uncomfortable. Issues is an avenue for you and your partner to connect. Yes yes yes that's very true. It's a kind of intimacy that you're not going to be able to have otherwise which may or may not be valuable to you but since I love talking about peoples love lives. It's been incredibly valuable to me to get to connect with my partner is on that level. Who are you attracted to flirt with her? How did it go? These conversations were of course painful and of course hard at first and are still sometimes hard but they're also very for me rewarding because we give spartans the relationship. I can see that like Oh. Do you think that girls a lot definitely definitely could see that and it does help rod size things that would otherwise be painful or threatening like someone showing interest in your partner can be painful and threatening but it can also be very area Roddick right. It's like when you kind of get turned on. Someone's like Florida with your partner a little. Yeah well yeah. It's like when we interview Celeste. Sex coach On our show she. I asked asked her. Do you. Think your clients fantasize about you in there having sex. And she said I sure hope so fantasize about other people when they're having sex with their partner so I again I think it goes back to your saying. It's the freedom part when people feel like they're stuck in a box of rules and boundaries that they want to do do something maybe outside the box outside the boundaries but if people feel like they have the option to step outside the box. Maybe that's all that's necessary. Yeah I mean Mamie Maimi all and I hate this binary thinking like you're opening your closure mono or your polly. It's like well. What are you if your partner talks about like pretend you're someone else Audibly to you. When you're having sex or recounts a previous sexual encounter while you're having sex like you can bring an element of non monogamy to spice things up or feel a little bad or whatever What are you can only make out with other people like right? There's more fluid a spectrum. Interesting yeah I never really thought about about AH MON very binary my thinking for sure. You're either open up your relationship or you. Haven't I think most people think of it that way. But it's it's really great the to think about this as a spectrum of how you can bring in what you're saying non monogamy into the relationship without acting upon them right. It's really great okay to if someone comes to you and they're like hey wanna open our relationship in you're not comfortable necessarily with full on having sex with other people may be there is like some sort the middle that you can like gray on that will get their urge out but not like in a way. That's not comfortable. I was Kinda thinking about this the other day because I went to a comedy show and this guy said I would point. Are you too old to call someone your boyfriend or girlfriend because you've Nile title told at the same time it's it's really exciting to call someone your boyfriend girlfriend because you feel juvenile like it's the puppy love phase and then when you call someone your wife or husband or in your life partner for some reason that label makes that relationship Boring Tori you totally think of like. Oh now you're not having sex or now you guys the old Mary couple. There's like no happy medium. So why is that when we think about settling with someone monogamously that turns into something really boring boring. It totally is. I think a lot of the reason why people like find this exciting. It's always like the the Saratoga married old people right. It would now that they love like the dating stories or like when you like have that hookup so you kind of lose that when you've been with the same partner for years like it's just not those new new experiences are happening. It's hard for me to say because I haven't been with someone for like that long. I felt that but if I was one for like twenty years maybe I would feel like I wanted into like actually have those new experiences again. If it's something that you missed having before a cerebral is so amazing on Sogang. But what about the tension between Predictability and eroticism about. How if you feel totally safe and secure in your relationship that's really antithetical to feeling turned on And so I think that's that tension of when you're married right that's a that's a sense of security when you've been together a really a long time that offers a sense of security but then it's also incredibly on on erotic but the truth is in every relationship. There's a lot of uncertainty we. You don't like to acknowledge because it's really unpleasant.

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And so what Paul can do or does but you don't need polly emery. Four is it acknowledges and brings that uncertainty to the surface because you can't ignore the uncertainty of whatever happening when a lot of whatever is already happening right And so I pink acknowledging that your partner is a completely different person than they were when you got together with them because we're always changing always sinema acknowledging that there needs sexual desires desires are going to change and are not being fulfilled by you because you're one person acknowledging. These areas of uncertainty can be highly erotic. If you have the courage to do eh. Yeah I mean boom. This is my internal conversation every fucking day Kathy. How can I connect better with my partner without forcing things happen but I feel like in life? Not just relationship is only when you're uncomfortable. That's that's when you can progress and that's when you develop and that's when you find yourself so happens in stable monogamous relationships is that you no longer put yourself in that discomfort. Everything is just so comfortable going forward or you accept it the way it is so even if you're not happy become complacent in not just accept it. It's not at like let me figure out how to make things the best it can be and this is exactly why so many empty nesters are now getting divorced this this is the stats stats are through the roof on this. Because he's married. Couples lost themselves in their kids and the kids leave the house and they have to re meet each other again and then that creates a lot the conflict because all of a sudden they don't know how to deal with that discomfort in a relationship so then they piece out it's so fascinating because the highest divorce rates now are for people who are like in their fifties and it's really fascinating. Yeah it's an empty nesters as initiated by women initiated by mostly by by women and then it's like years ears built up resentment to you know it's that like Oh for the last thirty years I didn't do the dishes every night and then all of a sudden blows up when when the kids are out well I think also people preserve for the kids a lot of times so so staffer not a factor any more than it leads to more of this and like a lot of parts of this country and other countries. poly-amorous isn't as big as open as it is and like San Francisco New York like some of the major cities here so maybe if there were other other options that some of these people could look at maybe it would get the spark back in their relationship or he would kind of like we've heard from people like it's hard to have someone that's like a good kind of like roommate. Plus Lover Blessing all stop like. Maybe there's a way to appreciate that person more for like whatever kind of capacity there Phil. Yeah so when I present this idea of like open. Relationships are married friends who may be experiencing some issues. They are all open for it but the one thing holding them back is how do they present this news to their family family. This is where you come in Allah. Just how were you able to sell this idea to your family. I mean I would not describe scribe sold funny such imagination and I've always had I don't know you all close you can call not having sufficient boundaries. He's however you want to describe it but we've always really open with each other and we've always had our relationship with each other above disagreements so if we describe politics with religion or or lifestyle. It's like I don't like what you're doing. I don't agree with it but I used to love you and you're slow invited at Christmas and so you know that's kind of how we've handled it. I they they want the best for me. This is not what they think is the best you know. I tried it their way. I gave it a real shot. And you know I'm not saying this is this. This is right for me or for anyone else. But but they are aware O- Internet's aware and the Internet in Alabama. So let's let's harder news for them. Is it your sister coming out or is a you exploring non monogamy. You know. We're we're we're in competition. She also works in cannabis. This is it just the two of you or do you brother Cherry. He'll be Tusa. You said sisters who are married to engineers and having lots of babies so it's like a buffer like totally. The thing is my sister. She married her girlfriend and they have a dog and they're looking to adopt and so she's kind of back in the good graces you we now. She's on the life track. So I guess as Paulina very a thing and I will do my like his. Besides your wanted light in New York transplant. Like do think other people know about it. Yeah for sure I mean there's plane active fat life community swingers poly-amorous it probably less so but they're certainly not monogamy in Alabama okay.

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It's maybe not as out in the open as here but it's definitely something that is happening. I mean even in D. we see wasn't nearly as on the right here and this is a whole `nother level. Maybe it's just a difference between keeping it under wraps and here. We like celebrate it. Yeah we've heard that from other get like we had banning kate on the outcast that we did the sex party with and we talked about the poly-amorous marriage they said even in New York. There was a scene it was more underground. Didn't want it to be like associated with profession as much where here people I think are a little more open. They still a lot of stigma. Yeah Oh absolutely. It's still relatively new ish mainstream. Do you think there's stigma here. Have you experienced even in San Francisco. I mean yeah I have people who are not out how it because they don't want to say maybe let's just say we're going to school. Yeah mostly work. It's worse than family. Yeah people who live here and their families don't or their families are conservative. And they just don't want to deal with that. What is it that it's like perception that you're like slot or like one of the weirdest things is that a lot of people will look look at an open relationship or an open hundred sexual relationship and assume the woman is being put upon taking advantage of clove right which is absurd because because the vast majority of heterosexual open relationships are initiated by women? Women have a much easier time non monogamy men do so. It's the opposite of anything but just cultural tropes gender centralism And misogyny men are Horny and women are go along with you know what they're they're being tricked victim to the right. We hear that a lot. But that's not really the case you see the women. Initially you take away because he also described yourself. A sex positive libertarian the N. feminists yeah what other views are so San Francisco. I don't buy some bitcoin employees. Going t shirt that's did. Sex Positive Libertarian feminists. Because I think you should get they all want because that would be amazing week. Silence resurrect t-shirt. I love this libertarian. Feminist podcast so I guess is there or any views that particularly stand out. Things that you talk about outside. poly-amorous falls into sex or decriminalization. Okay is probably my day Hobbyhorse got AH yeah why you don't own something you can't sell it or women and men people who are sex workers can't report crimes against them for fear of cops can use a sex worker services and then arrest her like that's legal now with the war on communities that sex workers use two screen clients and other safety tips being eroded lerone by Susta foster Become even more dangerous than it needs to be. There is no reason that makes any sense. I should be able to exchange my labor making a lot for money in a white market without fear violence. I can't give someone a blowjob for money in a white market with violence like that is just very stupid and very unharmful. We had a great episode throwback to was the season Sir remember seasons way better than me I think it was the season seven van was we have my service what it was called and we had a pro dominatrix and she could've talked about all of this too just like the challenges that were going on and how like the community had a lot of restrictions of how they could like market services and like just all of like the legal and physical dangers that were coming about. How do take like your traditional views Alabama the lake shape this and polly emery all your way of thinking that you still have internal battles certainly ways in new ways? Certainly I mean. That's such a big question. I think Saudi religious but a lot of people did but for me it was I. I was a true believer. I think what's the same between then and now is I'm still a true believer and I'm still evangelical in what I now believe. I mean I have a blog. I go on-the-spot only spot lake. I'm about spreading the gospel of what I think is right and I think the other thing is that I've always been obsessed with truth and justice but now it's just a matter of I'm I'm less willing to be ashamed of things that aren't hurt anybody I think that's the big the big difference between that and now I don't think sexism magical the thing that makes a transaction immoral Or you know something that that people should be ashamed of. I think it's been a huge problem. I'm in society that we've we've shamed people for being horny little girls for for having a sex drive for wanting to get outside the bounds of monogamy for for doing things that it don't hurt anyone.

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Yeah it's funny because I was talking to my friend he's gay male and he was like I just don't stand during when he falls and he's like I literally like just like went to a bar with my partner and had like a casual four-way on a Sunday for whatever reason if like that happened at St unlike traditional World Nepali emory but like more like traditional dating. That would be like. Oh my God. This was a huge. But it's such a norm right so it's like his question it was. He's fascinated by. Why is this such a big deal for like street? Hetero normative type relationships like his is like why is it because of like religious upbringing is because like women. Don't WanNa be feeling like slots Mike Misogyny like what is like the horror of why this is like not enormous thing where other worlds totally whatever I mean. I started thinking about this when my sister came out the closet and I remember sitting there in Church and and the pastor or the youth pastor whoever would be fat and railing against homosexuality and in the Bible overeating is a sin. Not every fat person overeats like but whatever. Let's just assume he does most of us do overeat why I was thinking back then. Like why are we making such a big deal about this then then not for the fine and I mean I grew up in it and I don't know I honestly don't know I think it's really weird but it's really unfortunate. I I mean who knows. Maybe I'll change my mind and realize like all this whoring around is just fucked up my soul like who knows okay but as far as I can tell it just it doesn't matter it doesn't matter you have the four-way go to the sex party. Horror around be monogamous. It doesn't really matter. And that's what I wish people underside like. It doesn't change your value as a human how you show up for like your loved one is in work and all the stuff that anyone does. I really think it's is two. Fold to your friends kind of train of thought there. which is I think? On one hand it could be religion that really heavily promotes monogamy. So you feel like like you. I have to be in marriage. It gets me closer to God. Other factor that comes into play is media portrayal a trail of your typical monogamous Hetero couple which is all about possession. You wear this engagement ring because you belong to me. Now you're you're my fiance. You get married because now you belong to me I take your last name because you're I'm yours. So that creates a lot of jealousy galaxy. It creates a lot of uncertainty in relationship. And that's why people are so afraid of exploring outside of monogamy because they feel like there's this this time of possession to your heralds sexual you'll partner I think it's those two factors that really go into like years. Yeah thinking that we have to unravel for Ali's but would I do appreciate about religion. I didn't grow up religious but what I do appreciate about. It is that it gives you a very clear prescribed moral compass for you to navigate your own thoughts against religion gives you where it says. The true north is and then you can live your life. Navigating thinking is as my true. North are not one thing that I think is really interesting is that I don't know how much this is true. But it seems like European countries have had mistress cultures. In America has had an inter- I think we can all agree that monogamy has always since the beginning of agriculture expected of women. Because men wanted to be sure that the babies they're providing for there's some very important for women to be monogamous only important for men to be monogamous in and as far as they could provide for any children that resulted from. They're not being monogamous and so in Europe. If you could afford to take care of any babies that resulted you've got to have a mistress or several depending on how wealthy were and it wasn't like a heartbreak for the wives. It was like some cultures. It's expected it was absolutely. We're expected in America instead of mistress culture. Where'd the mistresses acknowledged understood? Not a big deal. We have the I think much much worse I affair culture where his portrayal it's betrayal and we need to break up and it's a reckoning and I don't know I think in a way it's attempt at progress in trying to make it even between men and women but then we're just making it suck for everybody so to me. polly emery is a feminist reaction into both of those cultures which I think are both kind of failing in their own ways. We'll super interesting. That women are initiating or the men to be poly-amorous does say a lot about the feminists aspect. Women are the sex positivity movement right so that makes total sense for that. What were you saying? What the moral compass? I just find that if your race in a certain way especially in religious way then you have these concrete ideas of how life should be live and then as you live your own life you can just measure up against against what you were taught but what I find with a lot of people now is that everyone's just lost because when you give them just a black hole of choices.

00:35:18 - 00:40:04

Yeah seeing this from only dating two people people have no idea what they want or looking for so therefore they have actually no baseline to compare what they want. So what we've seen. There are some who are new to the poly community the and they feel like yes. This is all about sexual liberation. I'M GONNA get it on the southbound empowerment and they give really lost in it because they forget like who they are are and what they want from it. They forget to keep their eyes on the prize. I think and they just really get lost in this whole movement. Yeah it's interesting like the whole moral compass or having like the script of what you're supposed to do and I think even if you're not religious that's why also poly-amorous seen so like my God. This person is doing this. And have that stigmas. Because because you're shown through media through the way the family operates as a man a woman they have children lake live in a home with just that family. There's a nuclear family that's been prescribed to all of us and I think leg now in this day and age that's like being challenged a lot and I think a lot of that came came from all the work from like the LGBTQ plus community in couldn't have that right so it did bring to be like. Is there other ways that you can have a family family. And I think that's what's GonNa continue to progress things but a lot of people are afraid to break out of that mold because that's just like what they've been told in. That's what they're expected to do you. And why would it be a different way. Yeah I think it's a really underappreciated. How comforting it is to believe there is a truth and I have it right? It is so wonderful and I miss it every day but you did that right and I think we've all done this too. It's like you follow that prescribed Dr Path. And that doesn't mean you're going to be happy. Like I think the thing at the end of the day that we talk about with all the empty Nester divorces right you getting married at twenty twenty two in like saving virginity till then like I think that's why people are challenging that and thinking about what are these alternate configurations. That could actually actually lead me to a happier life Because just by following that prescribed plan doesn't work for everyone but maybe that's something we can really learn from religious. Legis upbringings is that we live life with different theories that we WANNA test. It's just a thesis so maybe that is the truth. We live by right now and then we just slowly Liane cover is something I believe in or not. I think we are just all too fucking directionless right now. There's too many choices we can live. NAMANANGA MS live. We live in monogamous. His life anymore. So be nice to say. This is my daily truth. My daily truth is I believe it takes a village to raise kids and a family family and a community. And that's why believe in poly-amorous. Maybe that's it who knows but it'd be nice. If people have more of a direction. I think what people need is convening and I think that meaning is found through other people and I think that religion is an excellent source of both meaning and community People go oh into poly-amorous expecting it to fix their loneliness either in their relationships or just in their lives and it won't by itself. I've tried having sex. Auto Pupil is fun. But it will not fix your loneliness and we'll go into a relationship. We'll fix your lonely. This evening monogamous relapse loops absolutely really and so. I think there's an opportunity. We are beginning to see groups that are not the church like Oregon House Fill that church like function China providing meaning whether that's normalizing on monogamy or providing those templates to people that don't have them right now because we've been given one template I'm we need in more or whatever it is you want to accomplish. Idea is to truly depend on each other. Yeah when something happens you know who your community is and how they're going to step up for are you and you know when someone in your community health how you need to step up for them. That's the Churches Centigrade job at. Yes that we outside of the church have not the sense of community and people say say that all the time with like religion kind of being on the back burner like so interesting because I remember like growing up and we'll be like what religion are you in like. Now when do you ever have. It was just like you don't even think about it because it's like so many people dislike. Don't kind of delete with any religion like there's so much going on but people people will say the whole. A lot of the benefits of religion was the community APP. So I totally agree with you of like. How can we find that in other places not like? Let's go to church or temple or somewhere somewhere than there is like a set of rules to follow but is there a police we can find that sense of community elsewhere safe. Yeah and by the way it's the best way to partner. It really really is because you know you're on the same page already and I love in your blog.

00:40:04 - 00:45:09

I saw that you had an article. That was the key to life isn't happiness it's me yeah so I I think that's so interesting because we're always trying to get happy and it's like is that really like how you get happy to try to get happy like there's much more to it and that just goes listen to the whole mental health issue that we're all trying to bring surface right now. which is we think happiness comes from events or milestones yet and then we become dependent dependent on that? And when those things don't make happy we get depressed and it's cyclical and that's why Prussian has really come into light in recent years because we get ourselves in the cycle of variation depending depending on things to make us happy but if there's meaning behind these milestones and events then you're able to hang onto something a lot more substantial so before we go to take Geico as I do WanNa read like one quote that I found in one of your articles. And then we're going to take as but I love the essence was like about this whole thing. Like is there more you can learn poly-amorous relationship versus Monogamous relationship. And you wrote. But there's nothing you can learn in e n I an ethical nominee. You can't learn monogamy except what it's like to fuck multiple people. The same time sometimes literally ethically I I do want to ask you about what do you think. The future of traditional relationships look like. Let's say in twenty years. Forty you see this trending. I'm honestly more interested in such nerd but the way that the economy is going to impact relationships. I you're the second person who's brought up the economy. I love it. This is great. I mean women are on track to the average woman is on track out or in the average man. I see it all the time. The bottom half of the income pool there are more employed employed women. The men are women are earning anyway. They're not enough a high. Earning men to go around like you cannot fix poverty by marrying alone. Comment and low income women is just workout and have the woman stay home. It's not a mathematical awesome -bility right now and so I'm interested in how that will change the other thing that I'm interested in how it will impact relationships is the move to cities. I think we're GONNA see further organization was shredding Mckinsey Report about how the job absurd gonNA continue to be started in cities rather than suburbs and rural areas. And so it's very difficult to have kids in a city. And so oh yeah I I. I think that it's going to have a much. I I believe that culture follows economic conditions. I think those economic conditions are GonNa have a much bigger impact packed on how relationship shakeout than you know anything you were. I preach about your nominee interesting. 'cause we actually talked to Dr L.. Alexandra Solomon who's a professor are at North Western and she teaches like the most popular class. THEIR MARRIAGE WANNA one. It's called but she said it could be hookup culture. Anything like just how to have relationships and she said the same thing when it was all about like why people are marrying later why they're not having children like it all came down to like economics and it's so interesting because you don't think about that like you. Think of changing gender roles are liking holier monogamous and it is fascinating that economics has such a big part of all that. And by virtue. Gotcha that pattern. I would think that in like say ten to twenty years that the only people having kids are those in poly-amorous relationships because those are the only ones who can afford to have kids Ben and Kate not to save financially. I have no idea what their financial situation is Ben. Kate are moving into a house with with partners so they can all research kits together. Maybe that's the future. I mean it's on the pass absolutely it always goes with like Fascin- Chad it's always. It's also interesting. The other flipside of this would people be more of a documents because if they can't afford to take people on multiple Live one girlfriend discount or not even matter because men and women don't have to be to those stereotypes anymore or would you rather just pay one time fee of four thousand dollars for a robot can have sex. Aw there you go Guy Nommik cool. So what are some of our takeaways. I think what Kathy said earlier. So you're just really sparked something in me which is we shouldn't think about relationships so binary. Yeah whether it's open or kind of judge if you're polly then you judge monogamous couples monogamous. You Judge Namananga me. It's fluid we're on a spectrum. Relationships are constantly evolving and I love his idea via of inserting a little bit of non monogamy into your monogamous really to keep things kind of cool and like kind of exciting but also a little bit uncomfortable.

00:45:09 - 00:50:00

I I liked that. Having discomfort in a relationship is not necessarily a bad thing. Means you're pushing your relationship. I love that and I also it is a good tool to be armed with if someone comes to you with kind of this different arrangement. That may not something that you're used to and like. How can you work through it together? Post to being like no in like giving it that black black and white answer also And to relate back to why we WANNA Kathy on this episode in the first place. Is this idea of religion. Would it plays into into your life and how it shapes who you are today. I think we should all sit down one day and just ask ourselves even if you're not religious especially if you're not religious what is your religion. What do you believe in right and that doesn't have to be like Judaism Christianity you know all those types of things it'd be your meet up religion? Uh but I think this is another takeaway have. We've talked about this other episodes to is like just what you've been told from an early age doesn't mean that that is like Lee Bright Path for you and it's like always questioning like just because you were told you're supposed to get married to heterosexual partner and procreate have children and move to the suburbs. All that stuff does not mean that's for everyone and I don't think people should feel badly about or think less of them as a person if they choose to have multiple partners or single partner like time. What works for you? And there's not like a right or wrong and if you've come back full circle that is a okay. If Kathy comes back and says yeah I really enjoy that religious life I believe in monogamy I believe in marriage. That is okay because you had to go through all the arrest to arrive at new. Think where you started. But it's actually that's where you should be right so I don't think we need to think about like totally denying what you used to believe in. It's just more of an experiment. You're just testing things out. I love to play off that like we kind of talked about earlier like is there a benefit from having that like prescribe gripe plan more like will you get lost. It and I think it's okay to get lost like I think it's fine to like not know what you want and like you said go from being poly due to being monogamous or whatever that shift is like if you kind of know and then you can understand yourself and you can see if that is or isn't something for you oppose postage. Just assuming it isn't or knit like feeling like if you went one path you have to stay there forever like all of that. I think it's okay to have that exploration I think the reality. CBS Like it's never over like even if you're married like things change people change. I personally WanNa like refrain from saying like if if I'm pro. Were Not Paulie I think at this stage of my life I want to be with a monogamous partner. Will that change could close the door store in any direction. Right until you're in a situation where you feel differently in like having different experiences than like who knows and to be fair Julie Julie. You haven't been propositioned either. That's right so it's not even four or against it. Just say I haven't encountered that yet right like if I was with a partner that that was really really important to them. I think it's like I'm GonNa have that conversation. It's not like a hard guess or hard now right Kathy Ada you kind of talked about the stuff all the time on your blog but anything from this conversation that you would add a takeaway that you've had no. I think it's a wonderful conversation. Yeah I I think you guys really summarized it. Well I guess the one thing. I would want people to come away from is to embrace the discomfort to embrace the uncertainty to embrace the not knowing because it's scary and it's uncomfortable but it's it's fun and exciting and that's where growth is I love that too like you kind of brought it up. It's like no matter what your arrangement is like. There's always discomfort just because you're married married and there's a legal contract isn't me labs. Anything could happen right absolutely wonderful. It is scary and wonderful. What the the discomfort doesn't have to be negative it can just be just be curious about it? Why am I on comfortable in this and speaking of Discomfort I? My pants are way too tight right now on extreme discomfort because I think I had too many chocolate covered almond discomfort myself. Today do that again. Thank you so much cathy for sharing your journey with us. If people want to read some of your blog articles where can they find you. Thank you so much Matt Kathy Dot com or you can just google sex in the state. Take Kathy rise onto the C. A.. T. H. Y.. Rei S. C. N.. W. I T. Z.. My twitter is at categorizing once checkout awesome. Any other places that you're found found anything else you WANNA plug sometimes right for the Bay City Beacon. I'm on facebook. I have a newsletter that you can sign up for either on my website or on twitter.

00:50:00 - 00:51:39

It's mostly daily and I'm writing a series right now called. The Fuck is wrong with San Francisco to San Francisco Go. Politics and culture mostly politics geared toward people who are have not been following it. So yeah wow. I can't wait to check. That sounds very interesting Terrified drink some wine that discomfort. You just do a question. Do you believe in marriage like. Would you get married again. Oh that's a good question absolutely cool we can wrap this up thank you again and at this is a great discussion covered a lot of layers about everything from relative to relationships too. You tight pants wrap this up. Stay Oh want to continue the conversation. I follow us on Instagram facebook and twitter with the handle at dateable. PODCAST TAG US in any post with the Hashtag stay dateable and trust us. We look at all those then head over to our website. dateable PODCAST CAST DOT COM. You'll find all the episodes as well. As articles videos and our coaching service with vetted industry experts you can also find our premium y series where we we dissect analyze and offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums Roseau downloadable for free on spotify apple podcast Google play overcast stitcher radio and other podcast platforms. Your feedback is valuable to us. So don't forget to leave us a review and most importantly remember to stay dateable.