Season 9 Episode 16: Attachment Theory

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The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world. Hey everyone welcome to another episode of dateable a show all about modern dating and when we talk about modern dating I like talking about psychology to the theories the behind why we are the way we are in relationships. Something we don't talk about and also something you to learn in school which hello. Why in school will you like? Learn about math which I never used within attachment styles is what we're talking about. Today is something that could have been very helpful to me ten years ago and still today today to an expert here in the house. Her name's Lauren. She's in her thirties. She's been in San Francisco for ten years originally from L. A.. She's a licensed marriage and family family therapist plus meditation teacher in San Francisco. I feel like if you're a marriage and family therapist you probably should meditate at the same time shoes. She's at passionate about helping men women and couples level up their love lives through mindfulness coaching and somatic psychotherapy. What is that in? Short body oriented oriented therapies are paying attention to your body as well as what all the stories that go on in your mind. Learn about yourself. Isn't there it's not a a personality test everything gotTa feel it and you gotta slowly so today we gotta feel attachment theories are. That's what we're learning. I feel like I'm I'm in school myself. Something new today. I've heard about attachment theories through Julie. Toe told me all about this idea and it. It's so mind boggling. If this is the first time you've heard about this you know it's like how we behave the way we do in relationships and according to Psychology Gee. Today I'll just do a quick summary Ourselve- attachment affects everything from our partner selection to how well our relationships progress to sally how they end that is why recognizing attachment attachment pattern can help us understand. Our strengths and vulnerabilities in relationship an attachment patterns established in early childhood attachments and continues to function as a working model title for relationships in adulthood. And if anyone wants to know little war because I think attachment various fascinating and super excited to have this. Because I think it's actually a little confusing when you're on and you see like there's so many articles about attachment so many and yeah elliot like even getting the summary of what it was. I was scrolling through like thousands of articles and I think it was interesting though. I didn't realize that it was initially developed in nineteen fifty two by I a British psychologist John Bowel Bowel Fulbe should tell us a background Let's talk a PD. So so John Bull. We came up with the term and then there was some experiments in nineteen sixty five live by Mary Ainsworth in American Canadian developmental psychologist. She's so this actually might be an area where I'm not totally. I might need some brushing too because here and in the notes that you guys gave me it says that she identified three major attachment styles but there are four and I thought she had identified for but three of them. Do get the most attention because they are the most predominant importing to most of the research out there which as we said. It's conflicting but she did. A series of experiments called a strange situation experiments where she had the child in a room and the child was being. Her team was observing this child with their caregiver. The mother in most cases mother would leave the room in the mother would come back and so they observed these different ways that the child would respond to the mother coming back into the room. Group doesn't took four different categories and those are the strategies that the children Iran kind of engaged in to like reconnect with their mother when she returned to the room so bison virtue of that alone our attachment styles innate in us. We're just born with them. It's a combination of temperament and the way our caregivers attuned to us as much as we. So it's you can have different attachment styles with different caregivers so you primary caregiver is probably probably GonNa have the strongest influence on you but you can have an a secondary caregiver. You have a different relationship with you. Might have an insecure relationship with their primary caregiver ever and a secure relationship with someone else. So we have these different prints and patterns in US and they can be activated at different times which as we'll talk about some indifferent relationships we show up differently so basically your baby and start crying and your news you laden is that like holiday would figure correct yeah or the parents come back into the room.

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Secure Child would be soothed by the MOM returning. Cryan it'd be sued. They would just kind of transition easily to connection with the mother and the anxious child would claimed the mom. Would it would be really hard for them to be soothed in any. Avoid Loyd aunt child their pattern ways that mom would come back and they would be really dismissive and Show a lack of emotion and kind of like funky left me our. That's how we interpreted a lot actually in dating to the attachment style and Actually I think in some ways some of the literature that's been written on attachment kind of blaming in that way to their whole system shuts down on the outside but internally the avoidance child is experiencing more anxiety actually than the anxious. Kate wake okay. WHO's not familiar with attachment styles? Let's go through all four. Okay what are they. Let's define them so the three that we've talked talked about so far is secure attachment which is sort of like the gold standard. That literature talks about as being like what you WanNa have and like lucre secure partner in that kind of thing thing but we all have elements of security in us. It's religious like how can we cultivate that brings out and relationship then there's anxious ambivalent attachment style. which was the the second one that I've talked about? And then the third one is avoidance or dismiss it and then the last one is forgotten one the forgotten. What exactly is disorganized? Well well it's been called disorganized and now it's called fearful avoid it has elements of both the anxious in the That's called disorganized. But usually that one is more eight the result of either big T. trauma like either. Your parent has trauma in response to those responses. Or they're consistently not attuned to you or hostile all when you when the child reaches to them for connections I read somewhere that like fifty percent of the population secure and again. These numbers vary depending on source and then it was like twenty percent are a chess. Twenty five percents avoidance and then like five percents this fearful. Yeah is there like any troops if those numbers are like how do you look at the really large percentage of secure attachment when you look at the dating scene in San Francisco. Where are are they married? That's what the book attached says. I need I see conflicting research out there and for the most part I hear seven percent for disorganized attachment in style. And it's like that and that's why it's Kinda forgotten but then I saw something earlier today. That was like twenty percent are earful void and so and then I noticed like convinced doing some research for this podcast to taking quizzes on. Different websites may attach them style with I out. Is that the measures they're using. I don't know or not. Don't seem to be standard in psychology. We have like an adult attachment interview. That sort of a standard you can use to evaluate people's attachment styles these online online quizzes. And the the you know the measures people are using to come up with these statistics. I think we'd have to be looked at a little more closely You're still a black and white. Because I I took one quiz that was like you're secure overall however you do show like fear of abandonment and like those types of insecure traits. But I'm generally like okay to let someone being do their thing so there's like yeah aspects of insecurity Kazan. So 'cause you're human the part that's always interesting. It's like I've also seen studies that's like. Yeah all the married people are secure are voided loyd bias. There like it's interesting. We we spend all these other episodes conversations thinking about what we're doing right and wrong introducing light but does it all come down to the waiver raised and we just blame our parents done the podcast about selling on Ebay too. I mean yeah. Windy be nice. If we could just answer I answer all of our questions dating and relationships identifying are we figured it out important to know our attachment siles. Let's take a quick break because I have an announcement all right everyone. You're hearing it here. I we would like to take our relationship our L. we're inviting you bad ass listeners to VR VIP guests at our very first live dateable. PODCAST show in San Francisco. Whether you're trying to d t are or will answer all your burning questions about love sex sex and relationships along with some surprise guests and well just some other surprises that we can't reveal right now. The event will be on Tuesday December ten. And it's a re- free but you have to get tickets because space is limited come and be our VIP guess at the very first dateable. PODCAST live recording. Whether you're single taken or we're trying to figure it out this show is for you.

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Get all the deeds on our facebook page instagram or dateable PODCAST DOT com slash. Live now back to this episode. The light at important to know our attachment styles. Well it can be so validating normalizing to read about. I do all those things and then to start to have this self off awareness about it and realized like I'm doing this thing and actually that these thoughts that I'm having about this person aren't true reflective of my attachment style and we started to have awareness. Lee have choice about how we act versus. Just you know on being according to these imprint that were imprinted on us at a young age we can have some choice about responding differently and and having working towards more security in relationships so if you're feeling insecure for example yeah let's go that. Was it like. You're not not with the right partner or is it come down to the fact that like the way you were raised is causing this in. It's really something that's going on with you. And it may not have anything anything to do with the partner Ryan should a combination of the two. That is a complex question again. The easy it's really just depends on the circumstance gets on each person has to. That's why identifying your attachment style is really important because then you can start to say okay. This is the way that I consistently act in most situations or this is my tendency or one of my tendencies. You know yourself well enough to say. Okay this part's me. And then what is the other person and by understanding standing and having an awareness of attachment styles you can more easily see the other person so like for example so the book attached talks a lot about this and I one of my clients reads it. They have all these revelations the author of that again do know Amir Levin metrically and there is also a woman who co author. I believe I read it in a long time. disclaimer Amir Levin and Rachel Heller Regional Heller. I have thoughts on the book but I won't show those right now but yes I wanna make clients read it recently and everything makes so much more sense in my dating life. Now I can look back at on the people of data and I can identify which ones were avoided which book focuses a lot on just identifying. Actually it seems to me to single out like identifying avoid attachment style quite a bit the directive not book is like seek out secure partners. Yeah I think that book is also where they say you bet. Dating Pool is mostly secure. That's where I think I saw that. Yeah and it's like I think I actually got a very strong anxious and then I was surprised by China and other quiz it was like. Oh you're with a little anxiety so in the book obviously secure again is a gold standard insecure attachment. People can be with anybody they can be with waited an anxious. Yeah isn't that fucking annoying secure in dealing with all these anxious people i. I don't really understand how that would be compatible. Yeah well when is the glue that holds people together chemistry sparked and and that's the thing about secure attachment is like you you can. I've been flow with relationships. I think are just annoying in general like there's no way around that but if you have enough good enough in common with the person in chemistry chemistry makes it worth it to your point. Though I feel like attachment styles can be relative to who you're dating right or what situation you're in and so maybe sometimes you're more secure anxious and other times. I feel the same way about the love languages. My changes depending on who went way. Because I'm needing different things. I think the science here saying it's rooted. It's easy to get to so it's rooted in that but like I said you can have different touch with sales different caregivers and what they found is like. There is correlation between being an infant and having attachment style. Andrew adult relationships but it's not totally direct and some of the ways that it's groups at a young age as irritate is described as like organizer disorganized secure insecure. And when you get into the dating pool ages as you re look more like approach and widens patterns and focus a little more not one of the main things. I think that attachment predicts there is something around sound. Like having more secure attachment predicts dislike sort of general sense of happiness and ease the one thing that that all of different sources out there who have a communist. Yeah they all say you can work towards secure attachment okay and you can do it individually or you can do it with partner. So there's whole forms of therapy that are based on this idea like a lot of the couples work out. There emotionally focused therapy. EFT which is something that I've trained in and unpacked which stands for like a cycle biological approach to couples therapy. Those those are all about developing secure bonds with China relationships. Those are may be married. People that don't have a totally secure bond but they develop it through taking risks risk-sharing with each other and starting to trust not imagine if you're with someone that security your question earlier like why would they want to be with you. Yeah there was a lull unshipped your patterns but I think also it's like a lot of times I would imagine correct new Voronin secure people.

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Would people like empathize with a partner. More in Mike have an understanding of them and I would imagine it would help someone that may be more insecure or void and to actually be with someone secure that it would help them get more secure state. Can we have a little bit more clarity on the different attachment styles in terms of how they present themselves in a relationship. Yeah so so. If you're secure obviously secure we can skip. We know but if you're anxious attachment style look like has it chopin teething or relationship. Yeah and is it always like on. I need to know what my partners doing all the time I got to be. That can be a part of it. hyper vigilance can be a part. Are they always looking for cues and trying to read into situations and maybe reading the worst and to in a situation is part of it. Anxious individuals content to lake project family history on relationships. There are some of their sort of protests papers are called can be like when separation happens instead of saying like. Oh I miss you it. Can it can be like protesting by blaming or criticizing. The person like you always pull away or kind of attacking because there's this feeling of like threat or abandonment comes. What exactly yeah totally had anxiety? What about like looking for the other ball to drop meeting for that objection sensitivity? Yeah I think the parts I've experienced more anxious side is like almost like not expecting sleeping like I hope like plans. Don't cancel this person going to text me back like texting. I think someone more secure might just be like. Oh they're doing something else could show up in those ways so making picking up stuff was to reasoner when things aren't happening doing in the because the question though is like even if you're secure like I would assume that to happen it definitely. We all are prone to sometimes feeling anxious about text messages regardless of attachment style and certain people are GonNa the trigger you differently than other people in certain contexts in certain crimes in your life. You're going to be more susceptible to Lincoln. Everything in your life is going wrong. And then you've got one thing that's going right we're GonNa you know and it's someone doesn't back and that's the thing that's going right. That's can have more weight than if you're feeling really great and other areas that's a really good point. Yeah I think in online dating reading or in modern dating in general. I think everyone's like anxious attachment because you can get on their social media you could track their. GPS you're you have all this information information without actually having them tell you. This has the best point that I just think that the conditions and the environment is not right to cultivate secure attachment eh with all of online dating apps and so the way that we cultivate secure relationships is through having them and for meeting people in person but this these amendments those like no oh accountability to anyone and you have all of this information at your fingertips but it's not grounded in any sort of relationship. I don't know I kind of think of it as like we're trying to form form relationships but we're all driving on several cars yeah. The conditions are lake in the sun is shining in your face and you're stressed out and support the connection with the person person driving the car next to you. But then you've got you know you're trying to do all of these things. People are trying to cut it's stressful. I think what's interesting before we did this. PODCAST like I thought for sure I had like anxious attachment because of all these modern dating things right. That didn't didn't realize other people were also experiencing and I mentioned I took this quiz and it was like no. You're secure and I'm like wait what it was like one area right around fear of abandonment like I mentioned but then when I started to like read all the different things about like having this anxious style of it was was like incessantly checking up on your partner and looking for like those types of things like shopping someways but not necessarily all. There's probably a spectrum trauma blank you are absolutely i. One of the quizzes that I found online state was there was eliminating Dianne poole who has website and she specializes in an attachment chm and I really liked her quiz. I found one like that a long time ago and I couldn't find it again today. She just show the percentage. You have each different stone K.. So you're not just absolute winding in 'cause we aren't we aren't in any way. Yeah so if you have more of an anxious attachment style. How can you work towards a more secure attachment attachment style with all of them? There's some common out like whatever attachment style you have. There's some common things that you can do but specifically with in all of them I would say involve mindfulness thankfulness from my perspective but with anxious attachment in particular. You're creating stories ray. Also recognizing that tendency to fill in the blanks having more awareness about your stories that you tend to put out there and having an innocence similar avoidance too and also anxious Styles tend to flip so you might be anxious relationship relationship interesting and Aitchison avoided and should be together right.

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They often are together and they flip back and forth. It's it's almost like this magnetism that's true cause more anxious you are probably drive the other person to be vice versa author kind of uncomfortable with a certain level intimacy because in the caregiving relationship they weren't receives without Intimacy so the avoided persons more comfortable with a bit of distance distance Anxious person tends to be the pursuer. They're also little uncomfortable when someone's coming towards them because that's more intimacy than to and they're used to being in the role of of reaching chain. So what about the avoid. How does that show and dating and relationships local? Yes so that's also known as dismissive type and that can be like pulling in a way not showing as much emotion pulling away like you said. Juliet can be interpreted as kind of a fuck you response under that. It's really and this is like wet and maybe a more secure Late perspective on it would be and this is part of like what we can do with our attachment styles. reframe what's happening. More secure perspective might just be to notice. Oh that person's percents feeling really overwhelmed and to cope with their emotions so instead of making about ourselves to recognize that that's their coping mechanism that being said they still might it not be the partner for you because it's like I can't deal with you. Constantly void ant might not necessarily be. Because I think I've always in my head I've always had like they're just like they WANNA be Independent. They WANNA do their own and they might not want to be like in a relationship because of all that but if I'm understanding correctly saying that that might not be the case they might just be like so you like not knowing how to handle their missions that they're like stepping back. Yeah they're not really capable necessarily of Having more intimacy unless they do work on themselves to and so they might have an inner conflict lake part of them part of most Europeans. Lots this deep connection but a bigger part Aban might feel like especially. They're conscious about that's unsafe. I don't even want to go there. I don't WanNA touch thought. I'm just going to be rejected and abandoned and met with a felony interesting guy was and that's flits working unconsciously so interesting because I feel like the I would think like the people that are scared of rejection would be more anxious. But you're saying it might actually be there would afraid of rejection. But they're not in touch with the fear so the anxious person got it touch with fear their nervous system calmer because of that to some extent whereas the I mean I don't know about with adults with babies at least the avoid it. They're just as their nervous system is just as responsive to the person coming or going they just don't show it and they've disconnected from it so they're not interested in showing their feelings of wait could be someone who is non committal absolutely. What about ghosting? Where does that Senate Mag that definitely would fit in? Probably more with avoiding it but again could be anxious or fearful the disorganized one. Where if we were secure we could say that? Maybe they just lake rent to hospital and just really back. Doug probably probably one of the insecure styles. They don't have the tools to say what's really going on which is not an excuse. I I don't think any of this as an excuse because this all can be changed we just have to choose to become part of it. Yeah and some other things with the avoid attachment style dame ways that they'll avoid wait themselves might be like it might be through alcohol or drug users and being done that also interest billy perusing social. Media's so that where you're like Oh. They're not responding to me and yet they're on the media back. That's avoidance straddling anything that just distracts from feelings and emotions is is kind of worthy avoiding goes When they're activated? I don't even realize they just are so used to cutting off their motions. Yeah I feel like dating someone who's waiting would make me more anxious. Yeah has they wouldn't be so present but then at the the same time I've had friends who talk about this people who are anxious in general look for that anxiety in relationships. Yeah don't have it. They think the relationship is not going doing well that I am not worried about where he is in. Why am I not questioning folks so you kind of feed into that? Yeah that's also like that's part of knowing your attachment activation to what's the difference between a healthy relationship and like love and passion and just like your attachment system being activated and like not confusing the two because we get primed with these attachment systems to say like okay. This is what love is like. That's my mom. Or whatever and I'm used to feeling this like yearning for connection actions when love feels like instead of being able to just be comfortable with actually the intimacy in being connected. I read that too though that it it was like you are looking for something in a relationship.

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Like you're gonNA find a partner that will give you what you're looking for if you feel like you're used to be anxious. That's why oftentimes times gravitated to the avoidance and we'll find the cure boring or their disliked. The spark isn't there and all of that. Yeah because you've mistaken the anxiety eighty for butterflies love. Why do you think though avoidance are to avoid switching out there were just nothing ever happened? The you've got you stale at like that events of much more rare pairing than anxious anxious or any combination will secure the even anxious anxious. I feel like that could get a little crazy too like if both people just had like a lot of neuroses and like constantly talking about big I think ancient rushes are like the love at first sight people. Yeah I know. Like hippy. Hyper Passion in the beginning and then it dies down and then it becomes really bad can be that it can be like a little bit. Become a little bit codependent. Where you're just always? Yeah and that's true. What about the last one I like? I often wild series disorganized right yet so that Blake where a parent has either trauma or response to try with hostility word. We're there just like there's some neglect their made. It apparent has depression or mental illness and isn't really present. So how that shows up is in relationship. Is that those. The we'll see closeness but then the show traits of both so they'll kind of have a little bit of anxiety and and seek the closest but then they'll pull away since these mixed messages like come here go away. Hey is kind of what characterizes that style and yeah that can be if you have a borderline parent or nervous it narcissistic current or really depressed parent can seem like erratic behavior like set in in the relationship drama romance or you like doomed if you have that like I guess like all I know secures the gold outstanding are the just say that kind of joking league. I don't WanNa make us all feel bad about like you read that over again. Yeah I guess. Is there any benefits to being one of the other two or is it really legal are trying to be secure like that. Is the goal pay just a quick break here so I can tell. Tell you about our sponsor Lola. You've probably heard as rave all about this brand. A female founded company offering a line of organic cotton. BPA free. TAMPONS PADS and liners as well as sex products. To what I like about. Lola is that their products don't contain. Any of the irritating additives are proven to be reliable. I favor lower products are the of condoms. Yes I've said this over and over again but damn next someone you're hooking up with insists on no condoms. Have some Lola condoms. Ready it will change your mind these. He's condoms are made out of natural rubber latex and individually tested for contraception and STI protection. The Handy Psychic to these condoms is lola personal lubricant featuring a mess pre one quick pump system with a water based formula and completely hypoallergenic. With Lola. You get everything delivered to your door. hassle-free for deep the listeners. Only you'll get thirty percent off your first month. Subscription just visit Milo let dot com and enter the code dateable thirty. When you subscribe again? Go to my I Lola Dot Com and enter the code DAT AB L. E.. Thirty when you subscribe now back to the show. Is there any benefits to being one of the other two or or is it really like you are trying to be secure like that is the goal I mean like you said drama is a big benefit over the other two you know anytime. We have a challenge Asia and Europe to overcome it. You Walk Away with like more self-knowledge more guests More depth so. That's the potential of these day. I think that it does taste. Hey if you have a really strong Tatran Style and one of these directions like it really requires self growth and self work and I think that's why I'm so passionate about the work that I do dating and relationships to make it more accessible for people to say hey. I'm struggling with relationships. Find for that because they think that's part of the problem with like the dating dating pool. Is that people aren't really willing to just look at themselves. And they're quick to ghost blame other people or be reactive or hours. Yeah Sir her or whatever yeah and not looking worse than just keep moving for and that's it that's part of avoiding attachment to write to keep looking for the next thing or ideally. They're both anxious. Avoid at tend to have these fantasies these ideals and sending nitrogen responding to that rather than what's right in front of them and that's what social media online dating actuates through. They're like hey you know you've got a thousand other options at your fingertips that will never materialize. Thank you this is I would love love for someone to like. Pick up the research year Gross Laura and it's going to be a disconnect this was first to salvage nineteen fifty two right which was like be baby aspect of the sectarian styles like nineteen sixty five or something like this is clearly long before dating dating apps and all this like we were saying this conversation like how much of this is your attachment style versus just like technology or the way things are today product of your viral exactly Salie.

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Are you asking me. We'd have to do a bunch figures thesis to understand this fully interesting conversation topic. It's reminding me yeah I did go to a talk. That was without this project called lean and the whole basis of the project is an about restoring the importance of relationships in our society and and our Culture David Brooks was the person speaking about it and he spoke about how technology is correlated. With just like less relational values in our society and a rise in suicide arrays raised arise in addiction rates. And so he's starting to explore some of those sort of cultural impacts and I would say also I think it would be really cool to study attachment and say like how has this affected our attachment styles and then we show differently with technology them because we all feel it. It's like if you didn't have your phone. You weren't waiting for so much. I guess you're you're just like waiting by a phone. That wasn't your time ago. I would also argue this so I have a girlfriend who has never ever been been anxious dating. She's just always been like hand callback. I guess he's does He. He wasn't interested. Let things go very easily and I know her parents and the way they brought her up was every time she had a conflict with a friend at school and I remember hearing about this in elementary school. Her the parents were sit her down and be like. Let's talk about why. Emily isn't talking to you anymore. And it comes from empathy like comes from. I think something's going on at home. I am should check up on her. I think you should be. You know to say hi to her more. And she's really carry bass throughout her dating life to the point where she doesn't do online dating she's never done online she was like don't need all date that's like I just know that's not how I would wanna bond with someone where now or to even meet someone so there is at level of like it's just a need how you were brought up but I do think modern dating amplifies some like maybe the tiny flames that we had before. Now they're like like full-blown fires. I would agree with that. I think that's a really great example. Integrate story of Lake. How secure attachment is from? Two parents. Didn't avoid the issue or say let's try to fix it. It looks at John and talk about it and have a conversation. And what can you do and how can you show up differently. Sounds like it helps for let go of. What's you know when things aren't and I think that's a good example like someone who shows up in a secure way and knows herself and says I don't want to put myself in this environment that just doesn't inherently feel valuing to me and I do think when people people go into that environment if they might go in feeling a higher degree of security and you start to have these experiences of ghosting or lying people with their own trauma that are just with with these attachment styles who might put it out there up front and dating after you have enough of those experiences? Those short to accumulate an imprint. You in different. That's a really good point too because we are back Jack Changing all the tags like traffic the flip side of a lot of people talk to writing myself included a lot of times. I mean I think I've gotten a lot better about this over the years. Conditionally was always like what did I do wrong. Why didn't like me? We still hear this all the time which is basically the polar opposite of what you're saying. Your friend did some of that. I mean. I'm sure there's not going to ask you what was in their childhood because it probably depends on so many different factors although if you have an answer fleas let the people. Ah Don't look at it that way. They look at it more. Like what did I do versus like others logical reason or like no big deal within like me. I mean I can speak for myself. My Dad's ever since I was little would be like don't have with that kid. That's a bad kid you know. Don't talk to this guy because he's a bad guy. It was always about the other people also so I really like. Oh I'm just going to eliminate people from my life who are bad or toxic and it was never about what is really going on their life and how how do I relate to the mine revelation just day orderly and then that also internalize to you like someone cuts me out of their life than I'm bad it gives you that mess up both directions versus yeah that very true nature dating more reactive rate as reactive attachment styles or reactive versus secure attachment career. Coming from your own sense of worth and just approaching that way so my coworker was talking about how she has. Three children and the oldest list is the most neurotic and the youngest is the most laid back corresponded to her parenting. In a different way than I've always associated attachment style. Basically with her first one second he would start crying. She'd be like added Beck and call always there. So she'd always doting on on him and then the third child the youngest child basically like.

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Oh you'll you'll figure you figure it out but that one is the most secure on on so you think that the more attentive viewer to apparent that would help with security however it doesn't always looking at my childhood and like I know my mom was super. Oh Oh yeah but I don't know does that like it was interesting when she said eggs. I'm like does that bring up some of my like fear abandonment. I always thought like associated someone that was more like their abandonment of someone on that lake had their parents always disappear more around I see is it like is it the reverse and if it's too much the other way helicopter cop drama like it's all about extremes and moderation rate but Dan Siegel has done a lot of attachment research and actually has a course where you can like learn about your attachment style and rewrite right your narrative that I found online today to also all doing research he talks about how like that dynamic especially with with a first time mom and I know like my mom was this way she comes rushing to attend to you and she's feeling this fear about you know maybe up being a good mom and her own anxiety so then you receive all of that you're this little infants funds unscrew seething like me and anxiety spurred we love Receiving her energy and her words in her attentiveness and so so got becomes printed in. US and avoid in Asia's might not relate to like how often they're around or anything like that. It's more of their energy. Yeah it can't it does does it can relate to that too but it's not so such a direct correlation like if you're neglected pens on how they tend to in the frequency so people can have drastically mystically different childhoods and somehow be in a similar attachment style overall. Yeah in some ways that there are some patterns that you can get like two maybe three identical strangers ranger now. I want to it was that was the one of the three triplets. That were yeah. I did not see it. It made me think about I mean because they're versus nurture and they had very different parenting styles and I don't WanNa ruin the ending. But they their some of their lives ended up very differently and they do look at the parenting styles and how that might plan to end the wind. Parenting style. They they take a stronger or harder look at or the night tuned into more was the parent who who like very much about sort. Suppressing emotions not feeling emotions. And I think that generally can lead to less secure attachment for example. So I don't know there's some patterns you can find as evidenced by the strange situation experiment but I don't think this is an actual statistic but I do think the youngest are always the most confident always young the way the parents are shirt worship more or less fearful by that so it's like if a parent has this unprocessed fear emotion that they're bringing into the relationship. That's GONNA be transferred in some way or other thought. I guess if you were the youngest and your parents were going through some major trauma in their lives for the situation. Certainly for the most part parents have been through it a few times so they are a little whatever. You're the accident child's. I could see that. Were yeah asked you also leave. You know you're the accidental. Your parents just like for whatever reason weren't as engaged in your child like red places like there's like showing up at sports arts event and like but dim the things that you as a child or expecting someone to stand the audience in your current there. That's going to have an impact of like amused. So what what are your attachment styles. I know you already said Julie but what do you think fundamentally what do you think is the majority. I think I've actually adapted over time and I mean I just took different quizzes so there's that also but like I think I did start off much more insecure and I think I have gone to therapy done a lot of self self work so I think I have more transferred to secure however I'm not GonNa say that I'm like totally void of insecure patterns. There's definitely I have a side side. There have abandonment that comes in. That's where I show insecure a more let people do what they want and not concerned about that so yeah it's just like one the area specifically that I now aware of the need to remember how that shows up for me Lori. Whereabout you? Yeah that's always been I've never really been able to identify Fights and I I remember taking a quiz with that that attach book and it told me that I was anxious the quiz on that I was like this doesn't really took it. The Patch version two. Yeah Clyde I feel this way I don't feel like I show up this way so I really liked. There was a quiz I had taken in found after that years ago that I don't remember what the results were. I was trying to find results but then I took again today Diane pools test and and I really liked that a lot better because it almost like it was quadrant all of them equally. I'm going to do that or something. I don't remember exactly what the portions were. But but I remember saying this makes more sense to me because I do feel like I have elements of all of these different patterns that show up pending on who.

00:40:07 - 00:45:09

I'm dating or you ever done a task. Ask no I haven't I don't know which one I feel like. I'm all of them like currently. I'm dating someone who's very secure and I have a very anxious attachment style to him 'cause in previous relationships I've been with anxious people so I just assumed that Zaidi like oh who are you seeing tonight. Who are you going to be with is also their way of showing that they care? Hear about me and love me because I'm with someone secure. He isn't so much about that. You know my free. Time is my free time. He's not filling in the blank to me. It makes me really really anxious. Because I'm like. Does he not care about me. The way I so used to so as a result of that it's made of weight because I think well if I'm so anxious this about this and it seems like he doesn't really the you know when I'm doing my free time then. I'm just going to avoid it. I'm just going to nine hundred. Tell him what's going on my life anymore. You know. So what do you think about that situation. I 'cause sometimes security comes off as ambivalent relationship. Howard did you tell a couple who who comes and sees you? How would you help them? Get over that free therapy. I mean I think the first thing it would be different working with a couple of verses just like what do you do about trust building starts with talking about the dynamics and being able to. Yeah just know that you can have that conversation and you can share. And so in a couple's therapy session. We would talk about the dynamics that play and and early non blaming way rate right and start to explore like wet feelings are under driving the dynamic for each of you like the surface feelings. Whether that's you know anxiety of the deeper feelings which might the fear or just like really wanting to connect with this person and so we're just explore what dynamics at play and more awareness about that together also not that I'm a therapist or psychologist any Wyoming. But let me analyze you actually. Just Kinda regurgitating what Lawrence. It's so I can't hang up their best somewhere out ten minutes ago. I think it was interesting. What you you just said? Is You flip between anxious avoidance in. Wasn't that something that you said earlier that those to flip flop and sometimes the way that someone anxious actually deals with that is to become so it was interesting that you said that that was your reaction where your style might be more anxious but the way it's showing up as a win it who just got my degree. Now go to come through. Should be via therapist that you're doing not noticing that you're having that reaction and we're coming mindful lake. This is my reaction and trying to underneath that until like how do I. How do I WANNA show up here? How do talk about this so to express my feelings by soothe myself? When I'm doing yeah Garriga? And how do I cope with this anxiety. All of those are different ways to work with it so I have a question. We mentioned earlier. That it's actually more based on your primary caregiver I've also heard that a lot of times like the way you what you see in a partner shows up from the opposite gender Karen so leg things that like I'm gravitated to someone that acts like my father more and I would say my. The mother is more anxious than my father is. Definitely more avoidance. I've always thought that sometimes I seek out people that are more in that Lens because of the influence and and Attachment I had with my father. Is there any truth to that or is that total BS. I have seen it go. Both directions like with people being sort of attracted to the same sex or opposite sex parents patterning. But I don't know I think but like the oedipus complex electric conflict kind of trying to resolve something with the opposite sex parents. I think I I think a lot of times like if somebody you hear a lot about if like an father was absent having daddy issues or whatever they call it so that can can show up that way. I don't know any statistics about kids more frequent but definitely isn't necessarily based on the opposite it's more primary Usually the strongest imprinting is with the person we have those contact with blend. Also some people have really have equal contact with both parents. That's true or more contact with their father than the opposite sex parent than their parents so he but there is usually a very strong bond with the mother in particular feeding right that came Out of her. Yeah there's that Tudjman is about how we sort of complete that cycle of differentiating or individuals for our parents and feel safe safe insecure without in the world so the mom is a safe haven and then the child gets to venture out if they're anxious and the mom is doing behaviors. Parents doing behaviors to reinforce that it feels like more scary to explore whereas the secure child can go out and be separated and then comeback in move in and out of connection and transition in and out of that with more ease.

00:45:09 - 00:50:03

I'd be curious is how this difference in different culture In Chinese culture. It's very common for you to be raised by your grandparents yet. I so you. Your parents earns basically drop you off ever since you're like a baby in. I've had friends who were raised by their grandparents so there were sixteen seventeen eighteen of that's their primary. That's our primary. Are you caregiver. And she's so interesting to see how that plays out in their attachment styles unlike their actual parents and I. I'm trying to remember I remember. I had an acupuncturist. Who talked about this with me? He was saying that is medicine. They also look at the grandparents as an element of support in that relationship and yet that is lacking in western culture culture and that I think that like online dating that creates more stress on parent child relationships in this culture that there isn't outside support in grandparents tend to be a a little bit less reactive They raise kids gave real whether it a lot more storms there at a different phases. Their life most people's experience experience with their grandparents is a little less conflicted yet and their their parents are in a different stage of life and are able to show up in a little bit of more secure way and in the most secure attachment we learned to grant hair. All I think I I mean I think this has been a really enlightening conversation for someone that has read a wad of articles and read the scare book. I think just like talking it out. L. and like hearing how much it can like dramatically different. It's not just like a one-size-fits-all thing I think has been super helpful for me so I guess just like takeaways as we have this takeaway premesh on every episode where you can learn about yourself. Yeah better you'll get a life stating but at life and I think sometimes we accept except the way we are. Because we're like that's just who I am. That's just my personality. That's just how I deal with but it doesn't have to be that way. We are so dynamic mkx in in how we operate we are able to change how we would show up in relationships and we are able to change our attachment styles yet. Even though it takes all that unraveling of years years and years of behaviors that it is possible but the first step is recognizing it and acknowledging totally one hundred ten percent agree with what you just said but but I think the flip side of it. I wouldn't want to point out. is like therapist going feeling good direction. J. Ago that part I would maybe caution on because I felt like this by reading some of the stuff is then. Can you into a box and I think sometimes if you fit into a box like that isn't necessarily a holistic view of yourself neither so it's great to to be aware of. I wear these areas for improvement are but also not necessarily be like I think for years. I'm like oh I'm an insecure attachment style. Well then I'm like I really am. I like questioning it and I love this like one. That you pointed out has the quadrants. 'cause I think all of us can't be defined as like a cigar. Yeah exactly. We don't all fit neatly into one piece and I think my other take away to is like I'm not saying that I don't agree with this whole theory theory because I definitely do think there's a lot giving but I think so much of it is your environment and Mike kind of also like what messages you've been told like if you constantly have people ghosting on new all the time like your human like some of the just wear on new even if you're like the most securely raised child ever so I think you new farms the experiences you have a working model you have exactly so I think like yeah. It's ideal to be like your friend. That's like this isn't personal but I think it's just natural natural sometimes at that candidate on you so I think again it comes back to your takeaway of being aware of all of this but also not letting it necessarily dictate. Not your life in a one-size-fits-all way. Yeah and having I think acceptance for its balancing. Okay Yeah I can change some of these things and also I can accept hi Matt and part of the secure attachment to really being able to say like. Hey this is me and I accept that. And it's okay I can you know. Let people go and that kind of thing in talking yourself through it. And I think that's where having people around you that are your supporters cultivating like secure connections with friends and or therapist or and like this is a clear be he actually at how it's assigned to is to be able to rework your attachment style in the relationship with therapist. Which sometimes people aren't aware of that but it depends on the style of therapy year practices offices or in your romantic relationship just working towards creating more security together and yet being able to talk about? This is where I feel insecure. This is what's underneath thick. And instead of enacting AZUSA jumping into action of authority.

00:50:03 - 00:55:03

And there's nothing wrong with you if you're insecure it trading it just not as superior as the new but I feel like like I think that's the problem with when you're put into a box walks like in your told secure. Is the gold standard like. There's something wrong with youth irony and I think that's why again I liked this notion of this hybrid rid of like I'm just GonNa be senior in some ways in insecure and others nats natural. We actually had a guest on our show Josh. Let talked about like how when he first met his is beyond saying they kind of put out at the very beginning like like this. I struggle we all have something. It's whether you're aware better not so like I think I guess what I'm trying to say in a very long winded way is like don't think it's a fault but like rather area to own like work with someone on. I love this free adopt letting them know like where it's coming from. Yes I feel like. It's just learning a new language like imagine the world is up to you a more you learn a new language. It's the same with this in something you said earlier. Loring said People who are anxious or who are in the insecure attachment styles. Don't have the tools in right to you. Work on on their insecurities so basically the people who are secure still experience all these other insecurity just have the tools and the language around whether experience agreeance so it. That's really what it is. You're just adding more languages to your toolkit so you can describe what you're going through. Yeah Yeah I would say they have yeah. They have that appearance of emotion but they learn to self soothe LEARNED TO NOT DO to self regulate to regulate the nervous system sue themselves. They feel distress Salt Lake. They you just have the absence of negative experiences. Because they're human like to happen. Yeah that's a really good point too. We're talking about like how you move from more of an an insecure to secure your childhood isn't going to change like Pat Gray like you can't change that but I think like for me for example I recognize. Is that like one of my challenges. Despair abandonment but like now. If I don't get like a text message back immediately or something I can change the story. Orient my heads the narrative like okay like maybe they're Adam beading maybe there'd recently also has nothing to do with their feelings towards me like Kinda try to rationalize allies or even expressed to them like. This is where it's coming from like I'm not believing you like this is my own. Shed Agri but just this is where. I'm like a little deficient in like like what I bring to the table. Yep exactly so you're you're recognizing the story instead of just going straight into a reaction yet you're gonNA take some of the charge out of it and give the other person in space to say. Oh God totally make sense that you'd feel the way that sounds happening or whatever to respond to you. Have you guys seen the Rene Brown special on Netflix. No Oh my oh God I watched it good so good. 'cause I just loved her like us to be like done like all these studies about vulnerability in your name and a lot. She's amazing but she had this whole thing about the way she approaches. Her husband is the story. I'm telling myself now it is so it's not like lame on it and it's basically like this is what I'm saying to myself right now. Where are you at and then they can be like? Wow like that is not what I was thinking the law. She's like now every fight. We have every conversation I buy is like. That's how it started instead of like feeling eddings. -iety how do I say this. In a way that we can have a conversation and then we can squash it Is this reframing what you're thinking a number blaming I like that I feel more secure from I think I must secure attachment i. I totally biased. Like an answer all the questions they ask you like in five different ways. You can't game the a test which well that's true. The one test I took they kept asking the same question. Different ways psychology today run. Yes the psychology today. Why recommended is called? What again but the women put it on her? Her name was Dianne. Poole P. O. O.. L. E. V. O. L. E. unquote Diane Pool Dot Com backslash attachment dash test I like to psychology wonderfully gave me a secure rating but uh-huh bias. I mean I also like questioning this book. I also got the insecure things quiz. Eric Argh Reiner. There's something there to begin with. I don't know but I would be curious. Maybe I'll retake it and see if I still get insecure but I'm definitely doing the one who really short quiz. The attached website is released short psychology today.

00:55:03 - 01:00:00

When I hit a pay six ninety five for oh man? I haven't done enough research to say which tests I haven't taken them. I'm all I was just looking for that. One that eight years ago and not able to find it pulls doesn't have quadrants but she does like percentages in a pie. Yeah there was another one I did actually showed you your attachment to different figures so it was like your best friend. Your Mom Dad partner. You had one or I guess if you didn't you could just do it. Relative to the partners with do for you ask is when you do them. All you get interested. Yeah I haven't like I don't know I think you read the description of like what mean on all the results to rose all these tests like they're great to get a baseline bit can't judger. You can't put your whole like weight loss analogy and definitely knock on a test but if you know your attachment style l.. Would you recommend people putting on their dating providers. Know Thi- secure about that. I think it's almost almost a red flag. When people put things on their profile that our lake emotionally available because like anyone can say that in Westchester test? Was it your heart. Where did you get this information from your ex? Because that's what I WANNA know. I I think I think it should be a conversation. I don't think online dating is really the appropriate platform to try to develop any secure attachment develops a solid understanding. We're standing one of the things I think about dating is like people have different approaches and some people. Just get on there to get off line but a lot of people get on there to get to know someone through taxed taxed and you really don't because you you know someone after you meet them and how they follow up with you how they treat you. That's where secure bonds are formed by saying how they interact with you over time and how they treat you not whether or not they're they're simply responses your tax like it's different if someone's response through text need never met them. That's different than if you know you've met come in person and they really show up for you in there. I recommend having those conversations in person as a way to facilitate deeper connections charity with each other. But we'll just just react to it if we see some taxol. Oh Swipe left in the five percents John. Well thank you so much for shedding some light on attachment theories. I've been one to topic forever long time. Glad we got to do it. I'M GONNA attachment. Theories are like the hot new tests of of the moment right now. I feel everyone's talking about it. It's cool and trendy. I Dunno I think someone needs to do more research. Last research was nine hundred sixty five. I feel like there's a new wave the needs to happen. Yeah Holly Cameras. Yes really that we've had different attachment I write for if you're GonNa poly-amorous Iverson is with us. That say about your town. I think we gotTA START OUR Research Dissertation on already episode two years as long as it's been since nineteen sixty five. Yeah we might need to give us a little time world. Speeding up much have have done so much research. And all these tests to take now maybe for our listeners. At home if you've taken a test that's really helped you shape your relationships maybe You won't will be a guest on our show and talk about it beyond personality. What else is out there? There's so much something super out there that we've never heard that'd be easy if something. Oh it was like detachment attachment style. You break up with white lovling were just hailing. We're GONNA do but if you like to get in touch to learn. How would they contact? You can go on my website. It's a Lauren quarterback I'M NOT DOT COM and we'll link all that inertia for that is up and mindful. Matchmaker sneaker and my facebook is crush messy or fails. MFT is marriage and family therapists. That's what I do. I work with individuals and couples and I also do coaching coaching as well dating coaching and teach mindfulness specifically around dating relationships. So a weekly meditation group called Meditate. That's dating and relationship being gene meditations. Oh Good I love that. It's actually inspired by if his topic. How do we create more Security Lincoln offline relationships and create community over time so the class is really designed to just come and meditate with people and have a little bit of interaction where you're talking about deeper topics and gets people over time? I WanNa doc what a concept meeting in real life over time uh Back and then they do a book club as well where we talk about dating and relationship themes it's like an hour and a half each week can whose are those.

01:00:00 - 01:01:30

Are People that make an eight week mint so we have a little bit deeper and talking about games like this. They relate to mindfulness so do read a book for that. He asked area than any discuss it. Yes first book and the book that I'll be repeating future but clips if the Buddha dated. Yeah yeah anything to do on Lauren. For a long I am busy for longtime book coming out in couples. It's so nice of you to did not sleep. Thank you thank you so much lauren. Thanks everyone for listening again. We're still looking for guests for upcoming season's since let us know if you want to be on our show okay. We're going to wrap this up. Sit did want to continue the conversation. I follow us on Instagram. The Gramm facebook and twitter with the handle at dateable. PODCAST TAG US in any post with a Hashtag stay dateable entrusts. We look at all those posts then head over to our website dateable PODCASTS DOT com there. You'll find all the episodes as well. As articles videos and our coaching service with vetted industry experts you can also find our premium why why series where we dissect analyze offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums Roseau downloadable for free on spotify apple podcast. Google play overcast stitcher radio and other podcasts. Platforms your feedback is valuable to us. So don't forget to leave us a review and most importantly remember to stay eight of all.