S7E2 What it means to be a man

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The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world.

This episode of dateable is brought to you by five hundred brunches. Five hundred branches connects like minded people wolf with similar interests to meet in real life over brunch. You answer a questionnaire about in your interest and how you spend your time. And then they'll match you in small groups of six to eight at brench spot in san francisco get a free entry into a brench now by signing up at five hundred brunches dot com and using the code date able everyone. Welcome to another episode of dateable. A show all about modern dating today our guests. His name is mark green. Use here to talk about men and masculinity we saw him on this panel about changing faces of masculinity a conversation about what it means to be a man today so highmark howdy a hi nice to have you with us coming to us from new york so we have sort of a time difference here but thank you for taking the time out to talk with us. I'm gonna give a quick bio about who you are marcus. An executive editor for the good men project and his articles have received over two hundred and fifty thousand facebook. Shares and ten billion page views mark writes and speaks on culture society family and fatherhood affirming changes emerging from the modern masculinity movement. Mark writes and speaks on men's issues for the good men project. The shiver report the new york times salon and bbc and the huffington post in addition he's published two books remaking manhood and his most recent the relational book for parenting all. That's a lot so give us a kind of a background about yourself. First of all you are married. How did you get involved in this goodman project. Sure well it's funny. I'm here. I have a book on manhood in a book on parenting and somewhere in the middle. I i think there's probably dating hiding in there somewhere A good project itself a long time ago after my son was born i began writing about parenting. I was part of that. That wave of side. Dad bloggers right. Stay at home. Dads and So that was the beginning of writing but a pretty soon thereafter. I began to realize that you know this. This definition of men as caregivers and and then staying home looking after their kids was a pretty radical departure from what is normally acceptable in terms of the performance of manhood in america. We were the oddballs. There was this whole terrible narrative in a lot of tv commercials like generally. They had dad's dropping their kids upside down and falling down flights of stairs with them and whatnot because it was utterly impossible that a man would be able to do that kind of caregiving right so we began to push back against those ideas lot. That was the beginning of sort of a growing awareness of how men are defined in our culture and what we are considered to be allowed to do as real men and what tasks or raised of being in relationship with others. We are considered not allowed to do. That's really interesting. You say that the old notion of what a data's is replacing. A mom would do what you're saying that there's just no defined role for a dad especially a stay at home dad. It's changing now. It's really growing quickly now. I think but go ahead. How is that changing. I think there's a general understanding now that that the world is changing and that four people if women are moving into positions of greater authority in companies business If they're pushing up against that glass ceiling then in many cases men are going to need to be able to take care of more of what's happening at home which includes raising kids and as we all know the we've had several major economic collapses so a lot of men are taking care of kids because frankly their wives or have better earning power or because they have been unable to keep working or god forbid because it's what it's a role they would prefer and their wives. Earning power allows them to do that. So what are some of the main issues that you think men do face. Today we are in the middle of a of a massive cultural shift in terms of how we define manhood and the impact that men have had on women's lives versus what the likely relationship will be in the future The metoo movement. And time's up and all of these sort of Powerful waves change moving through culture is forcing men to address.

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The question of what is our privilege. What have we assumed we have the right to. And how is that going to have to change if women are gaining Higher levels of of economic and social authority both inside the family and out. We can't keep playing the same game. We played For one hundred years leading up till now my issue with a changing gender roles has always been that for the last decade. We focus so much on women's identity in our progress that we forgot about men. I think a lot of the men in our culture today you know the single and the non single ones are having a hard time defining masculinity for themselves with their roles are also women. Have a hard time trying to figure out their expectations for men. So for example you know like julian. I are like at the inbetween younger generation older generation. So we kinda feel like oh you know the man should pay for for a state or you know the old ways of chivalry but at the same time we're also independent women and men have a hard time dealing with that too. They're like okay so so by do pay for a date. Does that take away from your independence. What do you think it is happening now. Are we shifting focus more towards men or at least equally towards men. think it's safe to save at. The feminist movement has done a lot of things in terms of creating change. But one of the things that feminism really asked of women was to take a hard look not only at what the culture was forcing on them but also what aspects of culture they had internalized. You have to look inside and say what belief systems have. I internalize that are actually limiting my ability to have a better life. That conversation has been going on the many different waves of feminism right. This conversation is now happening with men. Men are being asked to. Hey okay fine you may have privilege in you may have at the root of patriarchy and all these other supposed positions of power. But you're actually limiting have living lives that are very limited and you have to look inside and see what you've internalized from culture there. I think all the man box and basically it's a set of rules that and the first rule the man box is men are not allowed to express emotionally another one is the men are always providers not caregivers. Men are all into sports and that's what they talked about. Men are limited in many different ways by these sort of cultural rules of being a real man which are limiting to connect to connect with other men to connect in relationships to live fully connected relationships in our lives and that that single issue. I don't know if you're aware but the aarp did a study in twenty ten and what they discovered was that One in three americans aged forty five and older are chronically. Lonely we have these rules for performing gender in our culture that a breaking down clearly they are especially among young people but we still have this epidemic of isolation and it just because men perform the man box rules of manhood and when we break away from that when we say no i want richer more connected at relationships that starts to shift for us. But it's very difficult for men you know. I think age thirty and older to really become mindful of of cultural controls. That are on them. Do you think it's a problem because they also feel like there's a level of expectations. They can't meet absolutely men are strong and economically. We know that that A lot of the ways which men traditionally were able to earn a living are going away and that would be blue collar that would be Industry manufacturing all that stuff accordingly. If you define yourself as a provider and as a leader and it's always being certain and and being stoic and you lose that economic self definition you you you. You're out of work. You're not generating revenue you don't suddenly magically shift to caregiving providing support at home as a way to create your identity your identity your identity is faltering badly in those moments and it's because we don't. We don't have a circle of relationships. We can rely on to process those kinds of challenges. Men don't have ways to connect in process things like divorce. Illness loss of employment. All those major crises are gonna hit us at some point in our lives and if we don't create a robust set of connections in our lives to help us community has always been the way that we've processed Challenges but american culture particularly is so focused on this idea of.

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It's not a valid accomplishment less. I do it alone by myself. Do on my own. That culture of individualism is all part of this man. Box narrative right for men so when women date men when men date women. We don't come at this. From an authentic relational space where in the back and forth relating week co design relationships. We come at it from our roles right role and a woman's role and those roles but up against a whole new set of expectations. We have about what what our culture really is becoming. And it's a collision right there. We've seen from women's perspective that they still very conscious of what a male does for a living. They wanna make sure that they can be this person that does support in provide even in times like that hasn't fully gone away. And i think we've also seen a lot of men not wanting to necessarily commit in being a full long-term relationship until they have their career in place that they feel good about his can't live up to that role right. You know it's fascinating. We've had a whole evolution of thinking about the work that gets done in the home as being valid work as being challenging difficult. I mean you wanna do hard work. Raise a kid it's meaningful challenging and we've had this whole thing where we're trying to say. Look the work that women do in the home is incredibly valuable. If you put a dollar figure on it it would be. You know eighty thousand a year however you wanna value it but you put a man in that role and we haven't had that conversation. What what does it mean when a man does all that work in the hall ryan. I mean god forbid. We shouldn't even consider that. And i don't think many people really date with the idea that the person sitting across from them is gonna take care of all of that. Maybe men look at women that way still although i doubt it yet but for bid that a man should be looked at as he can do all of that and support me in. There's a fascinating phenomenon that takes place. It's called retrograde expectations. And and what it is. I wrote an article about this a while back but a woman who made that sort of agreement with her husband she was a very high paid executives and she and he began to take care of the kids and do the homework and what she discovered as that process went forward as she began to resent him for it. We have this this difficulty squaring up. What our intellect tells us about what we want to create in terms of our relationships. Then what this sort of retrograde conditioning. All these things we've internalized that we haven't really processed but began to raise their heads in ugly ways. When we break the rules of the roles were expected to play so one thing that that worries me a little bit mark. Is that if you look a suicide grades of males around the world. They're going up in also if you look at a lot of these shootings that happen. It's always the mail. That's you know that's doing this. Take us inside the male psyche. In modern times what is driving men to feel one lonely. Because i do hear this quite a bit into this sort of like frustration from not having a community that they can they can express her feelings with we talk a lot about this idea of emotional expression or learning to connect in relational wase right which which in in the work that my wife and i are doing the books that were writing. We're talking about the fact that boys and men as early as age four are trained away from their emotional acuity and their ability to connect. There's a book by judy. Chu colwyn boys. Become boys in the population. That judy chu looked at which is kids in preschool. She was embedded in a classroom for two years and for example she had a little boy. Who's four years old up to her and say miss chew. I just want you to know. I'm friends with all the girls. But don't tell any of the boys in my group because if you do they'll kick me out of the group and i won't have group now. The issue ear is not that jesus said he couldn't be friends with the girls although that is. What's remarkable is that you have a four year old. Who's already tracking the appropriate things to do if you're gonna be a real boy and cutting out removing suppressing. The parts of himself that he already knows don't fit so we have a culture that literally hammers away boys to hide their joy in relationships in their need for connection. Now you have boys taking your boys and men taking guns and going into schools you have men committing suicide. Because they've literally not the years of time it takes to grow their ability to do the trial and error work of relationships and get good at it. We've stripped them of that capacity. What if someone other masculine advice like. I'm the same. Masculine in air quotes like traditional types of things that early drilled into men's or boys' minds from an early age.

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Well that real men are sexual aggressors and more sex. You add the more successful. The man you are. Imagine the impact of that across a culture. Right it's never like oh what emotional connection. Have you made how much i'm having and this. This process of defining everything in terms of achievements goals outcomes. None of that takes into account that we do. Most of our most meaningful experiences are in the relating in the daily back and forth in the relationships that were embedded right those moments we create we share our authentic selves. We deal with our stuff. It's really deep down inside that has to be dealt with and none of that takes place when everything's about goals and money and outcomes and and public performances of success. Well it's interesting because those are all very quantitative metric. And i can see where there is a disconnect in pressure and then just additional depression anxiety that happens when you're not meeting those specific quantitative metrics while on those quantitative metrics. They say they say one of the biggest challenges of of traditional manhood is that you never prove you've done it loo- have to keep proving every day and one of the ways that you proven issue police other men for not doing it well enough so we have. This pecking order. Vertical structure in which all men are nervously looking over their own shoulder to make sure they're performing manhood right and policing other men for not wearing the right color assured or more God forbid being gay or anything else right. So we have a whole structure of policing and bullying that men are trapped in and the way out for men is to simply walk away from it and say this is killing me this end. It is killing men. I mean the the when you talk about levels of emotional isolation like we're dealing with now. It is the as a health equivalent of smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. If racist the likelihood of every major illness including heart disease diabetes obesity Neuro degenerative diseases all of that stuff. We're in the middle of an epidemic and we don't even see it. I see that the damage just for our own dating lies so at two drug and alcohol usage is more common among is wells. That's like an outlet for not being able to deal with feelings to home win how to date how to mend. Learn how today i would say. Men are given their first understanding of gender politics in those little policing moments when they're four five six seven eight when pre puberty when they're going through this this construction. What girls and boys are. I think that when you talk about things like patriarchy which i define as the the sort of man box rules. The idea that men have to do this a certain way. We need to own the fact that many many women have internalized as well about men and they they demand that men perform masculinity in that way. And if you if wanna. I mean i don't know how many women can handle the process by which a man would begin to talk about. His real internal world is and is is really emotional is hidden emotional side because that can be really challenging to watch and take a long time to complete and often when they begin to express emotionally that can look like a lack of certainty. a lack of dependability. A latte when in fact. It's the road to greater certainty and greater dependability. They've been drilled in from an early age women won't like them if they disclosed that or they won't feel like they're confident and certain. Is that what. you're saying. Her my misinterpreting well. I'll tell you something. A lot of men have said to me. They have said women liked to see so emotional expression but not too much. so they're getting direct feedback right That hey you know that's enough of that. Just like someone's like assertive and confident is always something that women will say that. They're looking for in a man right right well. That's a performance of continents. Real confidence being able to express authentically. Yep so what do we do about this. I'm sure this a million dollar question but one of guests said one of the biggest issues water dating is at men have become softer in. The women have become harder that statement. All that is code language for women have begun standing out themselves at it. Women have a multitude of reasons to become toughened up become harder and not the least of which is. I don't think it's a safe world for women either in dating or and the expectations of dating men haven't made it easy for women to feel trust. We've made them have to go through a bunch of really high level security checks so the guy before they will trust him.

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And that's understandable. Men are probably carrying similar energy about women. One thing that. I can tell you that we can do. And there's this narrative out there that men have to choose between their friends or their girlfriend. And i think it's very important that women understand that men need to be embedded in a in a group of relationships beyond their primary romantic relationship or they will not be healthy in their science back in this stuff up so one of the things that's important is to understand that that group of guys that your significant other may be hanging out with are important to his well being now does relationships can be lousy. And that's not helpful. They can be sexist a bunch of bad things. But ideally you. Don't wanna you wanna make sure that that your partner is embedded in a number of positive relationships in his peer group. Just like you are in yours. That's one thing that we can do that is at like we gotta shift the whole planet on its access right. Probably may have other things that we could do obviously from the younger age. I mean we have a lot of parents that. Listen to this podcast scwhab. We have a book. Called the relational book for parenting and the entire book is based on the on the idea that we can begin to grow our children's daughters and sons ability to form meaningful relationships. And all we have to do is introduce the ideas of how that can work and give them the time to do the trial and error work to get there if you wanna see some of the relational book for parenting content. Go to think play partners dot com and we have a video there. We have some pages from the book. This michael author dr sally. How baba is a couple and family therapists. We have a lot of really good information in there about how to grow these capacities in our sons and daughters awesome. See i hear from you. A lot of like Need other relationships. They need to expand their circles. Would want some of the other. Like man bok. Stereotypes of like men should be the provider One of the things that it's important to understand about My position on the man box traditional manhood which is to be a provider to be strong to be certain to maybe be emotionally stoic. None of those aspects of manhood are in themselves problematic. When when you talk about the man box you're not talking about those aspects of manhood. You're talking about the enforcement of right the that all men have to behave that way if week if we can take our definition of manhood and open it wide up so that all different versions all different masculinity are equally valued than those will exist to the degree that is natural and normative for them in a population of men but we will get much wider ranging versions of manhood and. I think that's a way to solve this problem. Where where women and men aren't aren't matching up because you have a wide range of of performances of womanhood right. There's no there's no limitation of at tomboys are considered a okay right you can do this wide range of versions Men are in this narrow track and if we open it up. I think there's a better chance than men and women will have in. The population will meet up with someone who matches up with them. So i agree that women definitely have a larger range. But there's still a notion that women should behave a certain way or thanksgiving but a rebel woman. I think is more respected. A woman his breaking out of those rules. I i have a thing where i that. I referred to as the hallmark card of expression rule for women and written about this. Women are are allowed to show more emotions exactly but there are. There are some emotions they are not allowed to show. One is a to be aggressive for for a man to be aggressive in business. He's successful for woman to be aggressive in business she. She's got something wrong with her frying. They're not allowed to show grief or or rage or any of these other emotions which are common to us as human beings and which when you suppress them. it's highly problematic. So i didn't mean to imply that women have a free pass on on expression they don't but it's something that needs to evolve with both genders for one thing that does happen going back to this notion of men have become softer. Women have become harder. Is that for a lot of women. Men have become obsolete in some ways if you think about it. Women's earning barriers Well the traditional the traditional definition of man certainly right because we are able to have kids on her own we can support ourselves we can hire nannies to take care of the kids and now it becomes a question of. What do we need men for. It's time to take a quick break so we can tell you about our current sponsor care of a monthly subscription vitamin service effective quality ingredients personally tailored to your exact needs.

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That's where we find our community right so let's go back to what we can do right now in in the way we are today and what i'm hearing from you is for men. A lot of men could really leave. Look at their current relationships and try to repair some the relationships. I know a lot of men who have issues with their parents and family and friends. Men are also static to they. They have friends but they don't call them they they. They don't do the maintenance on relationships to to get the benefit of right right. Yeah like looking beyond just romantic partner is just over relationships. We don't do the work to keep you know. yeah. I have a best friend. When's the last time you talked to him on eight months but i think men are so focused at least men are interested in dating and finding a partner all their energy is to these other people. They don't really know that. Well maybe repairing. Some of their past significant relationships would help them in that realm as well. 'cause just become more open so that's a great start for men. What about women. I feel like for me. I'll speak for myself. i feel like i'm very. I'm very attracted to a very traditional nasc yulin man and i would like to change my mindset yet. How do i get around that. I think that you can have those aspects in a man might suggestion would be to seek a man who is that and more we talk about this idea of opening up our definition of manhood. So that there are there's a multiplicity of masculinity. I mean you're going to have to make your own choice. In terms of how traditional traditional is for you but i assure you that there are multitudes of human beings in each of us multitudes of versions of ourselves it's possible. Have the both end to end to ask that of the people that were with right so i agree on an ideal world. It would be to have this. Everyone that can do anything. But i think the other side of it. And i've had friends that have gone through this as well as like really thinking about what you want in a relationship partner and yell like you want someone that can provide for you but is that the most important thing like is having them be like someone that could be a great father. One day be as important or if not more important especially if you're financially stable in yourself so taking a look at all of the different aspects of what you're looking for coming down with like the most important ones in the being flexible on some of the more traditional aspects that maybe not dealbreakers. You know what's interesting about. What you just said. Is it suggests that we can know what we want. I would also suggest to you that that one of the things that you should look for in a perspective partner is a willingness to design and redesign on a regular basis. Who we are and what. We're what we're becoming right because we don't know what circumstances will happen. Yeah i'm stable provider. Wait a minute now. I'm not rise. Something has happened right and so really. It's this ability and this willingness to look at variables to and to see that we as individuals not only weekly or monthly but maybe even daily are changing and are being changed this relationship. We're in with this other person. We need to be mindful of that that we can grow that side of ourselves to negotiate to connect to understand communicate and and and create co create something new but mark s. You know with modern dating online dating. It's a huge aspect of it. And what happens now. On i states is people are sort of like sizing each other up and they don't give each other enough time to explore these other dimensions of someone so you can give to people who are heavily online dating but also looking for the right partner full disclosure and met my wife on match dot com. Okay i i made an effort in my personal profile to state very clearly that i was not that i was a little bit gone with the standard performance of gender and i wanted to find something different and flexible and what attracted was a conversation with someone who wanted to have that conversation. So i think it's important to know that what you say in your online profile is going to attract the kind of person that you are that that mirrors your presentation so seeking a conversation about something new and different may get you one of those we. We're all trying to present what we think other people want and if we don't know what they want we don't present anything so i think that's a good way to lead into takeaways the takeaway that i have to is that there is not this.

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One size fits halter men and women. And i think one of the benefits to of where we are in society that it's not that women need a provider. They need something specific that you could just start to understand who this person is as a person and build something together opposed to expect them to fill a box for you and know and understand that whoever you date a year later they're going to be a different person as are you. And if you're having the kinds of conversations that track and grow and revel in that and enjoy that then you're still going to be talking to someone from a year ago and the person across from you is going to be different now. Might take away. Have a few one of them is site. The of relational way and also creating connections. I think you're so right mark where you say we're all so independent and siloed. In the way we think in the way we relate to others an one of the things we can all do men and women is too. I just look at the relationships. You currently have. How does it define you and what we can do to strengthen our current relationships. And then i think for for women Especially for me. I feel like a lot of times because online dating is just so prevalent a lot of times. I'm not so aware of how. I'm presenting myself. Because i just think people are only dating like they do on amazon. But you're so right. Whatever i have in my profile reflects a person i wanna be with. So why not get a little deeper in your profile to attract the person who wants to connect an want to have a a really deep conversation versus someone who just has nothing in. That goes back to not everyone in one box of person. There could be men that do wanna have that deep connection in conversation that you're trying to seek out well that's the joy of online dating to we In my day to walk into a bar thirty seven people and pick one. You're interested in now. You can make a statement about what makes you an individual and you've got you've got a huge date of group out there some of which are going to be looking for that and we as individuals have the right to be authentically ourselves and in that moment you're instead of the first risk being take saying something at the first date. Just take it in your profile and save yourself the trouble right right and i think another takeaway is for men to to not believe that women. Just want the stereotype. Like i mean. Personally my personal experience like much rather someone that's like vulnerable and open and someone that's necessarily leg killing at sports games all the time and doing all. This stopped more traditional masculine. So i think it's like good for men to not feel ashamed of there not that way. Just seek up people and that can be released late romantic end unromantic that appreciate those. Values opposed to lake scorn. Them relative men start having more More authentic caring relationships with each other Del gain they'll gain a sense of how rewarding that is and and i know for a fact that that men when they're in their peer group they have they have thoughts. They have internal feelings thoughts that they will not share because they're pretty sure they'll be shamed for doing it but suit but as soon as one of the one of the other men say i've got your back on that that these conversations come throwing out of them also think we hear too from women like one of the main reasons like they're going on that second day is big didn't feel connected medicine. isn't just the physical traits or the traits on paper. They have a good job or all of that like that. They couldn't have that. Relational conversation is in that relational space that we connect. And if we don't go there at all which is not surprising on a first date that people would say. We're going to you know but if you can get to some sense of what how would we co design. How would we co create. How would that work between may and this person if you can get some little sense of that it china a light on what could be. What could what could happen how that could work or how it could. Not you know how you can make a judgment about at person in their way of being in the world. I think you just hit a really good point to that. A lot of people aren't doing that on the first day in especially with the way modern dating is this day in age that you sometimes get that first date. Yeah so it's really important. i love. We've had these conversations that other podcasts. Two episodes of dislike kind of skipping through the date. Talk just getting real. And i think for men and women that could be a takeaway of something that he kind of helped them get to that point faster and have that connection. We gotta keep asking why. Why did you feel this way. Why did you do that. And that's that's a way to get deeper in a conversation versus johnson date resume that we usually have.

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His job is yours where i grew up. Yeah you know. There's a thing called listening with curiosity that we talked about in our book and it's it's the idea that we go into a conversation expecting to be surprised and delighted by what we're going to hear and when you when you engage someone in that way you ask questions you keep looking. You're interested it elicits different kind of response than if you go in sort of you know how it's going to go right more assuming that you both are gonna play the roles instead of the relationship but but there are people who are just waiting to go ahead and have that conversation. They're just looking for permission. Huge thing and remember that we live in a culture which shames and his men who are for sharing their authentic internal emotional dialogue. so there's a lot of fear that for men that if they start talking they're real thing they're gonna get laughed at. They're gonna get rejected. They're get they're to get reported. Really insightful talk so let's wrap this up in the interest of time. Thank you so much for your time. Mark will provide all the necessary links in your show bio is there one central place so that people can find you. Date want to learn more about the worker. Doing grab and go to think. Play partners dot com. Okay thank you so much. This has been really insightful. On like if nothing else like we've been tied solutions. Hopefully people listening to this can just stop in valuate their man. Yes or they're a woman in dating men. So i already have a list of things i need to do. I've enjoyed the conversation thoroughly. And i look forward to two senior list. Thank you so much. Mark our listeners. We want to hear from you regarding this topic to generals the man. Box masculinity femininity. What is immune in modern dating and just in our modern times. We want to hear from you. And we're going to wrap this up say dateable your action item for this week to make a list of all the aspects of what you think. Masculinity should be. It doesn't matter what your gender is. Then look at each item on your list and ask yourself if and how it relates to your core values by doing this exercise you should be able to find the aspects of masculinity that matter to you most and cross out the things that our society tells you to value but may no longer be applicable to you. This episode of dateable is brought to you by five hundred brunches. Five hundred branches connects like minded people with similar interests to meet in real life over brunch. You answer a questionnaire about your interest and how you spend your time. And then they'll match you know groups of six to eight at brench spot in san francisco. Get a free entry into a french now. By signing up at five hundred branches dot com and using the code date able. If you do know already. We have a revamped website with articles videos and content. All about modern dating you can also find our premium y series where we dissect analyze and offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums. We've had some great feedback. About how actionable these episodes are so. Check them out on our website or itunes music also visit the site today to see the latest about coaching where we connect you with. Dateable approved experts to help with everything from dating profile reviews coaching and even gathering real feedback about your dating style in a personalized and affordable way to connect with us visit dateable. Podcast dot com. You can also find us on facebook twitter and instagram. All under dateable podcasts. Don't forget to subscribe in down. Load the podcast on itunes or your favorite podcast player. So you never miss an episode.