S3E8 Married with Options

00:00:00 - 00:05:04

The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world.

And i move so i loves. We are excited. You've join us for an older episode. While our earlier seasons were all about dating in san francisco we quickly realize all the themes. Learnings are universal for all daters so we shifted to covering dating from all around the world as the seasons. Progress to the fun part. Is things happen. I san francisco the tech epicenter and counterculture capital of the world. We love for you to keep tuning in to our older episodes. But there's no set order to listen in so feel free to jump to more. Recent seasons are relevant episodes for you enjoy the show the database podcast hosted by me. I'm you a a former dating coach. In new york turned activator in san francisco on each episode. You'll hear commentary by my producer. Julie critic and other surprise co hosts. This episode of dateable is brought to you by five hundred brunches. Five hundred brunches connects like minded people with similar interests to meet in real life over brunch. You answer a questionnaire about your interests and how you spend your time. And then they'll match you in small groups of six to eight at a brunch spot in san francisco get a free entry into a brench now by signing up at five hundred brunches dot com and using the code date able everyone. Welcome to another episode of dateable. Show that opens up a candid conversation about dating in san francisco. Today's topic is one of those topics that a lot of people have in about. Who are very curious about and It's also one of those topics. I don't know much about so. I'm really excited to have ben and kate in the studio with me today to talk about holly ameri. Let's just a fine will poly-amorous. I think there's a lot of misunderstanding around that word. Sure i can take a stab. I mean my belief is that i. It's not necessary that you are only ever going to be in love with one person or one person at a time that you could potentially love many ball concurrently but just like when you have another child. You don't love your first child any less. It seems like if you were to meet somebody wonderful and then made another wonderful person that that would be the greatest thing ever to have more love in your life. So that's that's my take on it. The main difference that that we find between pollyanna marie and other kinds of open relationships than you know the the swingers and and all that other stuff is that we're allowed to have feelings for the other people that that we get involved with so you can have emotional feelings. Are these feelings of love for other people. I have not yet been in that boat. I have not yet fallen in love with somebody else. That wasn't done. I think we're both open to that. I wouldn't say it's something i'm looking for. I feel like there's anything missing in my life. It's just on a really like deep logical level. I just don't believe that. I can only allow one person at once. I guess what i'm hearing is. It's not so much what you're allowed to do. But you're for strict from right so it's not so much you're allowed to love other people. It's just that you're not restricted to love other people. Yeah i try to. People are really always curious to hear more about our relationship and we get these questions a lot and the best explanation. I've come up with so far. is that. it's like being in a video game. Where the physics different. The rules of our relationship are just different. And that's just the way it is and that could be different for other poly couples absent. I absolutely think that it is. I mean we are you know i think most people who consider themselves polly would probably consider us fairly new with this. We are probably pass as pretty normal like where you know married and we look like a normal couple in the outside and that gives us a lot of benefits that i think people in some other types of situations don't don't have we have friends who live in houses with more than one wife or husband and all the kids are raised as siblings and honestly. I think they're really happy. Well adjusted wonderful. People and their kids are too so That's kind of the as what i'm familiar with. Being the far end of the spectrum. And we're probably on the other end. Where probably seems like we could fit into a bunch of different molds. Mush is focused on you guys for a site. How did you guys meet. Oh we met in college. You're young. Yeah we met were you were twenty one and i was twenty two and is my sexy younger man. Cougar and how did you date your friends for a couple of months.

00:05:05 - 00:10:01

I you know there was an art exhibit. It was a really cool is in a bunch of knitted fabric filled with spices. And stuff in this big armory in city. And i thought he would like it and so i asked somebody on his phone number to invite him and we all went to the art exhibit and i thought he was really cool Those kids perspective. I walked into the room and saw her and was like okay. I have to. I have to make this happen. She added. I walked in and saw this very beautiful clearly. Very intelligent woman like you know a twenty one year not meeting a lot of those people at close thirty. Let me out. I mean you can physically look. Someone say they're beautiful. But what was it about kate. That made her intelligent in your eyes. When we started talking it was a little harder to spot ideal number. He walked in and He had a button-down so he'd clearly come from some sort of job which was already attractive and he looked me squares film school so the is and he shook hands and he said thank you for having me. You know something really nice about our place and thanks for having me as guess that really struck me. That's not a thing that the dudes i was seeing in college or going on dates with we're doing all what a polite gentleman. How'd you gonna spend in poly-amorous relationships before. I think i had didn't know it. Probably the worst. I think i probably i think i'm the worst in the story I had honestly cheated on a lot of people. I didn't really think it was that big of a deal. I kind of thought that that's just what everybody did. Granted this is all before i was twenty one rates. This is back in the territory of like. We're not exclusive yet. We didn't have that conversation. Idea of being exclusive was odd to me. And i just thought oh. I must not be ready for that. You weren't ever in a define polymers. Relationship no okay. What about you ben. So how did you guys get together dating and have the relationship progress. We were together for about four years before we opened things up like we were. We were engaged already. Well honestly once he put a rock finger like now. I know you're coming home easy. Whatever you want so you were dating for four years from the southern perspective. I drag on forever and then you put a ring on it and then when you put a ring on it. Did you guys discuss with this. Marriage will look like we started to have some conversation already kind of started to discuss it. I hit expressed died. I was kind of terrified at the prospect of only ever being with one person to you brought it up. I yeah. I think i did bring it up. Is that correct you. You brought it up a couple of times. And then at a certain point. When i found out that i had also on i was like very upset but also very curious and okay so yeah i think we had been dating for like two years or something and i cheated on him and it was just a physical thing wasn't like i was painting after this other person and i honestly again i just. I didn't really think it was that big of a deal. I know that many people listening to this. They're probably gonna think that. I'm a terrible person. But i genuinely didn't understand this from his perspective at the time i didn't have that i'm busy because i don't feel that way. I don't feel that kind of jealousy. Did you know you cheated were you. Oh yeah finding cheat. I'm not yeah. I'm not a you know. Like in denial. Or i wasn't like making up. You know some way to make it. Okay and my head or anything just really assumes that that's just what people did and you just didn't talk about it and that that's just how relationships work because they'd heard so many stories of people that cheat on each other and you know it just seems like a like a normal thing that we just kind of brushed under the rug and we don't talk. Did you tell ben so it did. When it felt like the time was right we were going to move in together. And i thought well. That's really serious. I should. I should tell him. And i was actually shocked when he was like. I've never seen it on you. It's like what are you talking about. We have been dating for years. You were surprised. He never cheated on. I was shocked. I was really really surprised. And i was like almost angry. I was like oh dropped the act. I was like irritated But he never had and him being kind of a scientist at heart was just of course he was angry. And this took us many years to overcome. I don't wanna gloss over this like this is not something that was that was serious for both of us but he was very curious like why did you do that. Like what did that provide for you. What were you. What were you thinking about before like not. Just what were you thinking. But like what were you actually thinking about.

00:10:01 - 00:15:07

And what was it that you need it. And we had some very very frank conversations. Which i think is the Like the requirement for anybody to be able to have any kind of open relationship is to be able to talk about things that are kind of hard to talk about. And just be you have to be able to be honest with yourself before you can be honest with another person so really figuring those things out took some soul-searching So what were some of your answers to that. It was just knew it. Was you know. It wasn't an experience where i had to reassure somebody after a long day of work. It wasn't about them. It was about me it was you. Know lusty thing. And we haven't had that we'd been dating for years at this point. We were very much in love. And i think we both kind of knew that it was going to be a long-term saying and i needed to find something or i thought i needed to find something where i could just have this sexual experience that was about my sexuality and not about somebody else's reassurance. That's how i felt at that time. So purely physical. And ben. I mean i like this person. I wouldn't like throw them away. And i would probably still pick up the phone if they called and you know if they needed something like it's it's not like this you know somebody i don't i didn't care about or don't care about But no never in any kind of relationship way. Not at all. Okay and then. How do you respond to this when you found out i mean i already didn't like the guy. Yeah yeah that makes it a little harder In the hard for me part part of the hard part for me was that. I i just. I didn't like it was like that was part of the icky feeling was like of all people which is actually come up a few more times like we. Now have we call it. Well we didn't coined this term. But we call it. Kitchen table polly emory. We have to. At least i'll be able to sit around the kitchen table and like have a good conversation with each other or we get veto power like if we just really don't like somebody we're just happened. I think both of us have told each other like i. Just don't really don't like that person that you're dating okay. So i do want to get to that. Because i want to the boundaries and the rules. How did you open up this conversation about possibly seeing other people. And how did you guys solidify the sort of relationship. They'll worst three ever is. Both we can talk about. This is like this is a this is a pretty normal thing for couples that are just getting into all kinds of relationships on me. The first thing most couples do is let's have a threesome. And i want to interject and say that there are a lot of things that are wrong with that. Initial approach that Some people an audience who may be poly-amorous or thinking about right now so we can talk more to that. But this is. I got into this. Your brand new. And you're working unlimited data and you don't able to talk to. This is the thing that makes sense to to a lot of people where it's like. Okay let's bring another girl into the bedroom You know very often. It's a fantasy that the guy ad and it's less threatening to have somebody finds out something that could be negatively about guy so since i was the one broaching this topic and he was the one that was less comfortable. I was letting him say like. This is the way that i would like to dive into this d. Bend the it's on the it's on the low end of outrageous things you can do. Threesomes are like the entry level. Yeah exactly which. And so many people i think. Maybe you're listening to this. Who are aware of the fact that actually being in a triad relationship is one of the hardest things to pull off. That is like a very very very difficult thing to. We've all watched three's company. We all know you got into third party. Did you know the girl. Nope so saw him out. Having drinks with my coworkers. Cates on our way to the bar and this woman starts setting on me like in a way. That doesn't usually happen. Just at the bar on a tuesday random stranger completely and i. I don't think i never taken anybody else from afar entire life. Because it's just not really. And how i roll. I really don't think you have. I don't think so. But she was laying it on really thick and when kate walked in she doubled down. Apparently she thought i was very pretty so explaining. How was she hitting on you. And how does she doubled out. Pretty grab even before cake out there. I mean she was. She was making herself very clear. We've been talking about having a threesome. And we had no idea how to go about it and all of a sudden. Here's this woman the bar we've been talking about all right. We've we've been talking about it for like a year and so this was like the first opportunity. Because i don't think either one of us much effort to seek that out. I always try not to be pushy. And i think he was a bit nervous with our friends just so the universe basically handed this to you.

00:15:07 - 00:20:11

Take this woman very very clearly. Had some say in the matter to but yes thank you. Universe taught to prepare to take no for an answer so anyway we all end up in a in a cab on the way home and unfortunately the bartender who we knew and really liked does gave everybody one last shot because he was really rooting for us at this. It was pretty clear what was going on. And so i felt like she probably had one too many and by the time we got home. I had like decided okay. We're going to talk her into bed. And i put sheets on the on the so far and put a pillow out and got her. Glass of water plugged your phone and everything and head and i said you. Don't worry we'll call you cab in the morning. And i thought that she was going to sleep And she was very appreciative. And sweet. And i want to go take a shower and then i the from my perspective. I'm taking a shower. I've got shampoo in my hair. And she just runs into the bathroom and cops and in the shower with me and starts like kissing the touching the everywhere and it was. She wants me into the hot water thing and it turned off and all of a sudden. We're just both being blasted with cold water and veterans. These like thought we weren't okay. I guess he thought maybe somebody fell in the shower. Tried to like here you go. You can go to bed. And i turned around and she strict closing his running. Headlong at the start of the pornos watch unfortunately fantasy. Turn out that well. Yeah so she so at this point. I'm just like okay. Everybody you know chop chop you get out of the room. Get a towel. Get china off. Go upstairs get into the head. We'll be right there to get out of my hair so the threesome didn't go well. Why why had never been with a woman before at all. So i didn't know really what to do. I know what i like. I was trying. And i wasn't getting a lot of constructive feedback. She was was grossly. Oh my gosh. you're so arguable. Oh like just like you would imagine in a porno. And i was kind of hoping for like fit. Like really tell me. Do you actually like wanted to learn. From yes i did. I thought it would be a really. I thought it was going to be a learning experience and so we were. We just ended up all giggling on the bed and probably also had a bit too much to drink. And i think everybody ended up feeling perfectly happy about that situation and then she went home and we never talked to her. But this opened a poly-amorous relationship. How did that happen so we made cuba profile. The two of us like like you. Do they have a new feature where you can link your profiles together but this time. They didn't have that the polly emery dark ages of okay keeping you know all all three or four years ago actually keep it is one of the most progressive dating sites. They do allow you to actually put open relationship and things that are profile. they're great I think so needs to be thinking so we made our in profile and then We just put up some pictures of us with our cat. who's like. Hey we're normal people. Look we have cats like us. We li- cats were great and somebody reached up to us. It was another couple. They seemed absolutely lovely. They had just moved to new york from the bay area. Actually and they were really missing their community and so they were trying to find like minded people in new york so they said you guys seem like the kind of people we would just be friends with. Can we all go get coffee together. We're trying to put together some. They call them. Suarez trying to put together some suarez at our house and we want to invite the right people and i immediately got the hat i was like. Oh my god this. Is that kinky sex party that people do. I've read about this magazines. I was so excited. We are going. I was super super comes so he went to get coffee with them. They were absolutely lovely. They came to our wedding. We went to their wedding. There stole close friends to this day And they made us just feel really confident like we can meet strangers on the internet and this can go well this is nice so they invited us to a soiree at their place and it was our first like play party where we actually does like a group of people were having sex Which was awesome swapping or just orgy. No more orgeon style and the difference there is swapping kind of implies that one couple switch with the other couples partners and What we would call play party is has a lot more focus on individual consent where individual people can do things that they would like to do but it doesn't necessarily imply that their partner will or wants to do that. Same thing with another person consent you have to get consent. Huge consensus huge. But it's more like i mean i think swapping they're they're it's definitely not a nonconsensual. I don't mean to say that. At all but i think that there are definitely pre negotiated agreements between couples when go into like a swinger situation Where a lot of people are okay with swapping where if one person in the couple approaches and other couple.

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There's an implicit agreement that like they will be like basically trading places right. And it's very consensual because i'm sure that these couples would never approach anybody that they hadn't previously talked to their partner about ahead of time. The play parties are just a little more lax in that Like i could go up to a woman or a man and say hey do you. Would you like do this thing with me. And they can say yes. And that's fine. And i don't necessarily need to get ben's permission or that person's partners permission god it's implied by persons partner. Got it okay. So you're not doing stuff as a couple really. You're they're usually typically plays opera when we go to. If i'm that i mean it's like a it's like when you have playtime kids to call them. Play parties should be fun. What is the progression of events. After this in parallel. I had started talking to him in. Who wanted to go on a date with both of us and so the three of us went out a great time center and we went back to our place and had like another kinda awkward threesome. And i were talking about it the next day and she says you know i like i. I don't have a lot of sexual chemistry with put this woman. But but you do like i date and i really liked her and i still really like her. I definitely consider friend by. Yeah you know. I just wasn't like feeling like we had a whole lot of sexual chemistry. And and that's when we started to realize like wow the odds of finding one other person that we both have an equal amount of sexual chemistry with seem very low. Actually we really should probably just be meeting new people that we like and spend time with them and see what happens. And i realized that what happened was they had chemistry and they really really liked each other and i thought they should pursue friends which was important so this is where we sort of figured out the whole kitchen table. Let's talk about the rules. The boundaries yeah sure we are. We have very limited roles. Most people you to you. Probably i think would have more rules than we do Mine are basically no tenants. No students no employees. Nobody in a subordinate position. Who could really. This is like legally covering our house. Nobody who could say these people forced me into something And you know we need to be able to actually like this person like if it's somebody we don't want in our home that's veto territory right there. That doesn't usually happen on the other reason that that the You know that is all getting along. So important is because You know one of the things that you hear when people go on radio and talk about poly-amorous about love infinite and that that may be true but the time is not A lot of other finite resources they get wrapped up in relationships. So if i have to you know subdivide my limited free time. When we're both working fulltime to go see this other person like that that we'll get inconvenient. So i have so many questions about applying the rules of dating or the norms of dating to a. poly-amorous relationship when you guys go on dates with this other third party who pays for the day. Oh i think it's different every time i mean you know if if somebody's hard up for a job will the other people who are gainfully employed. We'll split the bill. I don't think we have any kind of specific thing we there and do you. Do you ever get in a in a situation where you're gonna date with someone in the tour of like a we. Should we text her next for out again. Yeah definitely yeah simulating one of my insofar as we have rules one of my number one rules polly is. Don't be weird if you want to take somebody text them know y y for adults start. Nobody has time for that. But do you guys like out at home just to go. Do you think she liked ghost. Oh yeah. I also just don't like eating in front of people and like its polite to take somebody to dinner get released conscious because i'm like chewing thing state is just you and i am going on a date with a man. I met on on tender for i. I only just download timberlake a week ago. I don't think i'm gonna keep it on my phone But it didn't need this one nice person and so we are going to go meet at a burger place and then would you have to approve them beforehand. Have you seen his profile. I have seen this profile because kick. Kate has been avoiding the whole social media dating thing for a long time. Because it stresses her out. So kate cinder experience was lying in bed next to me inspecting every profile.

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Like every what do you think. Do you think he's cute. I can't tell it's like how far away in this picture like always rock climbing a douche or does that mean he's cool. He was getting irritated with me. Because i kept asking for for help. Basically i've never been on tender. And i and he does all of our Profile maintenance mostly. Because i i just don't really care to it. I find it very stressful. So you as a couple but then also date individual. Yes we did right. And you've intro introduce other women into the threesome. but what about men. I dated another guy. Yes into the into your relationship with ben. No no okay. They i think they tried to be friends. I don't think that worked out very well. They didn't have they on the surface. They had a lot in common but when it really came down to it they just didn't have a lot to talk about. That was a little stressful. Actually that's actually one of the reasons that That we stopped dating. Was i it just wasn terrified of you know. I was trying to be friendly. He was near to this. And i think he honestly. I don't think he believed me. That everything i was doing was okay with that. I think that he felt very unsure of what our rules were He felt unsure of them. Because we didn't have a lot of them like he was kind of expecting me to have like a bullet list to go down. And i was like well. It's a little more chill on that. We do things that make us happy and check in with each other. We never wanna make each other unhappy. Do use condoms with each other. Okay are you in two as well then. Okay so only women for you and for uk. Women hetero flexible. I tried to date a guy wants and she was probably the loveliest gal. I can't say enough. Good things about her and i just realized i wasn't attracted to women I i do like to play with women. When it's kind of out of party and i guess i feel a little more like kind of go crazy and have fun but As far as dating. When i didn't didn't seem like the right thing for me. I want to jump to my girlfriend again for a second just because i feel like it really encapsulates like our experience of those about once a week she would come over and she and i would like catch up and hang out and have sex for a couple of hours and just relax like do our thing and kate regard shopping and be very grateful for like the totally unencumbered alone and would come together okay. That was great about this time. Spent because i feel like i mean your time time is not infinite right so do you allot time in a week to spend with other people versus with each other. We definitely sit down and look at our calendars and make sure that we're leaving enough time for everybody. Gotcha we don't. I don't want anybody to feel like they're on the sidelines. Then has a really beautiful way of putting this. He says he wants well. He say it. I i was. I guess i was explaining to somebody. I basically said that we want our partners to be as much a part of our family. Is they wanna be. Yeah but we understand that you know when somebody's coming into our situation that we are married we definitely are a higher situation where you know each other definitely kind of comes first. That doesn't mean somebody's emotions are any less important and so we try very hard to make sure that we don't ever make somebody feel like their third wheel. We have a two bedroom place we rented on purpose and we try to make sure that neither veteran feels like the master bedroom. We have two spaces. And i've made them decorated them very beautifully to make sure that felt really equal that if he had a woman over for the night that she didn't feel like she was getting like the dinky junk closet room or something. Well so let's go to that. If you have a woman over what happens. She spends the night. Where does she sleep. There's they'll sleep in one of the buds. Actually kind of depends on. It depends on who wants to share. I don't like to. I'm trying to squeeze beden like now. You guys go. They'll go into the room. Yeah and whichever room. We sleep in depends on who wants to watch. Tv that night because one of the bedrooms has tv and the other one doesn't so it's kind of like up in the air like which is totally fine number three comfy. Just a little background i was. I was dating a girl a few months. After you have to san francisco and started making friends. She was going over every so often and she was the kind of person that would like wake up in the middle of the night. Wake me up and try to have and that would wake up. And she's like we're not. We're not sure ebony moore.

00:30:00 - 00:35:16

She wants to do that. That's fine but you're waking me network. Next i get woken up in the middle of the night. And you guys are in the other room to have sex. But what have you both want to have sex with ben at the same time that it would be to her of course if that were something that she will be okay with to her. Oh absolutely have a three meet. Oh yeah so. What is you both individual. You're competing to have sex with men. Does that ever happen has happened. I mean no. I think that's part of why you have to be mindful of each other's feelings and the calendar the time thing is is the trickiest point were competing has ever entered my brain if somebody's had a really bad day and i'm like i need comfort. I need cuddles tonight. And i need this. You step out of the way like the person who's in a better spot kind of goes to the side and make sure that we make sure we're taking care of everybody the way that we need to so you have to be extremely in touch with each other also communicative us up to talk awhile mocks. Yeah and don't assume say it out loud. We spend so much time just talking about this. I have learned so much more about myself. From just having these conversations than i would've without the i feel your relationship was a lot stronger for having to talk about everything and just everything's on the table. Do you ever get jealous. I don't he. Does i get you also about very specific. Things wake if he wants to do something with somebody else that she didn't wanna do with me like that or if i feel like she's taking a lot of time away from me to go see somebody else but you know so we work out that you say better scheduling. I feel like you're spending you know three nights a week this week with this other person and the nights that we do have at home i know one of them is going to have to be take out the garbage night and one of them is going to have to be. We do our taxes. Nate and we're not going to get to have a date this week. So can you please like rearrange your schedule so that we can have that time together. Say currently as we speak today. How many other relationships. You have individually right now. I have none dating anybody is they want to say it all out like that now. I mean that's the thing it's i again. I don't feel like there's anything missing in my life. It's like. I have this option to learn more about other people and about myself and see how these other great experiences. It's also just a lot less stressful. I find myself attracted to somebody. I'm not nervous about it or try to hide it from anybody can be not makes my life. I think considerably less stressful. And then then how many relationships uk early not at the moment. I guess this is just a transitional time for us. When was your last relationship a couple of months ago. okay why it end You know it was. It was her first polymers relationship. I met her at one of the happy hours. And you know it was like a a big journey for her and you know it was. It was really good for a while. And then kinda over. When was your last relief. She gosh it's probably about a year ago. It ended badly and i've actually been kind of waiting dating some sun. 'cause i was just very sad. Afterwards he he didn't really quite believe me that all of this was okay. Like i wish i could play him this podcast. I think he kind thought it was a liar. Well not talking to them. So then we're there for her when she was going through this sort of bad break. Oh that's the cutest part. Yeah if somebody like breaks up with you actually. His last relationship ended on the day before day and he was really sick and we ended up just cuddling and talking about her pretty much all weekends. k. was far more on the lila's. I was ready for she. You know we've been going a little more distant. And of course her relationship. I'm braced for impact. Because you know people learn a lot about themselves when they're doing this for the first time i was upset on his behalf because i felt like she didn't value. How much like you put into that. And how much it meant to him. It was a fairly flippant way to say. I don't i don't care as much about you as you care about me which is completely fair. And if that's where she is she should she should say that and i probably shouldn't have gotten so upset. I didn't get upset with her or anything like where stole fine clearly understanding there. That's us to me is that we probably didn't communicate as walls. We should have liked the happens to you. Like people feel like. Oh you can only really loved me if you leave your wife or oh you can only really care about me. If you don't care other person so i think might have been maybe a part of it. I'm not sure that comes with misunderstanding. Of what a pollyannas relationship is so in the interest of time going to wrap this up we have to get you guys back because there are so many more clashes a lot of stories a lot more deaths than layers to all of this spent one last thought is give me like a two second set sentence of advice to someone who's getting who's thinking about getting into a poly-amorous relationship.

00:35:16 - 00:39:54

It just takes a lot of honesty with yourself. You have to know what you want. Sometimes that means you have to go experiment and figure out what you want. You can't figure this all out in a vacuum very honest with the people that you're engaging with telling them everything went if something is bothering you. You're feeling jealous. Be honest about that. Talk about that. it takes a lot of time. It takes a lot more time than a traditional relationship to do it right. And you know it's very intimidating to there's a whole big glossary of new terms. You have to learn because we live in a culture where we don't have words through a lot of these things like you know all of a sudden we're hearing words like meta more and come. Persian conversion is the feeling of happiness that somebody you love loves another. I might not even be getting that definition right. So it's like it's just a very intimidating saying to dip your toe into i would recommend okay cupid. I think that's a safe place. I think there's a lot of people like minded people on their one thing. Is that the lingo changes from two region within the us. Even so find out. What your local dialects for this is we thought swapping was kind of a loaded term when we started to travel. Okay so basically take a course on what well resources like this. Like the data podcast People who are willing to talk about this kind of thing go go seek that out you know go. On on reddit there's a non monogamy sub reddit. There's a poly-amorous abroad before. Ever send anybody over there. I'd have them read Doc- sins buck yes. Buck does eastern. And and her friend. Whose name i can't remember it now. Wrote a book called the ethical slut but she's still active Around the bay area. We actually met her a couple of weeks ago. She was speaking and it's still very very relevant and that was a book that we read when we were trying to figure this out. Yeah it's it's don't be afraid to ask for help. I guess as what i would tell people and try to seek out resources and if he thinks something is not for. You then probably isn't for you. There's a lot of different varieties of ice and you'd have to do your research. Well if i can take a stab at the short description of the advice i would give people that are just getting into this for the first time that if you were if you were doing this with a partner you have to walk into it knowing that you will upset each other at some point because there's no way to discuss everything in advance and when that happens you have to talk about it and agree to figure out what went wrong and not be upset with each other great advice. So here's a treat for oliver listeners. At home if you are someone who's curious about poly-amorous or non traditional relationships Email us contact us. We will forge your questions onto ben and kate who. I'm sure you love to answer some of these questions. People in the right direction right. I'm sure there's a lot of mistakes. You learned along the way that you can help other people not make the same mistakes and also we want to hear your stories. Are you in a non traditional relationship. Tell us about it. We wanna get you on the show. I want to thank you. Guys vindicate for being on the shown for being open and honest and telling us your story and on account three. we're going to say stay dateable. Three to one data will on your action. Item for this week is to learn about a relationship. Sil- that you're unfamiliar with start with a google search on non monogamous relationships. And you'll see. They're currently seven defined categories of nominee alchemy according to psychology today by learning about non traditional relationships. It'll help you understand what you're looking for your boundaries your dealbreakers what excites you. And just what you want. Get out of dating. Think of it as a self growth experiment and who knows you might find yourself one to try something a little different. The most efficient way to meet new people is a combination of online. and offline. five hundred. Wrenches has your offline covered connect over brunch with new friends. Come alone or bring a buddy. There's always a table. Full of friendly faces mimosas and eggs benedict sign up at five hundred branches dot com and use the code date able for free entry to connect with us visit dateable. Podcast dot com. You can also find us on facebook twitter and instagram. All under dateable podcasts.