S1E10 Are you opposed to hooking up

00:00:00 - 00:05:28

The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world.

And i move so i loves. We are excited. You've join us for an older episode. While our earlier seasons were all about dating in san francisco we quickly realize all the themes. Learnings are universal for all daters so we shifted to covering dating from all around the world as the seasons. Progress to the fun part. Is things happen. I san francisco the tech epicenter and counterculture capital of the world. We love for you to keep tuning in to our older episodes. But there's no set order to listen in so feel free to jump to more. Recent seasons are relevant at for you. Enjoy the show. This episode of dateable is brought to you by five hundred brunches meet like minded people who share your interests over brunch. Everyone welcome to another episode of dateable. Show that opens up candid. Conversation about dating and san francisco and dating in san francisco is never easy. But when you have someone like michael vargas navigating it for you is just so much simpler. Isn't it and even good news. Is that what makes it so fun and playful is with the wonderful woman you a to lead you across the way. Did he just say good her. Good her mortar. All on each episode we dissect a dating spray and today. I believe we have our friend. Robert robert are you there. Yes hello robert. You were recommended to us by several people. What is your dating story for us today. Yeah i think. I'll start with the most juicy one as as i probably should so it's It all started with the lovely app called tinder. We may have heard of in tinder From what. I am very quickly found out this is a hookup and i. I went into it with your intentions but got bored pretty quickly. So what that led to was Then being a bit intoxicated one night and drank a social experiment in that social experiment was basically copying and pasting same text into a lot of matches conversations as you know once you match you can converse with people so i decided you know what did i just see what happens when i send these twenty girls that wouldn't normally engage with You know a message that says hey you wanna hang out tonight twenty girls. Yes good number. That's it that's the typically significant so i match with all these girls. I just got bored. I deleted the app on. I got drunk one night. I decided to re download it. And halley's matches waiting there for me. So i figured what the heck social experiment. Let's just see. How many of these jokes actually say yes to a wanna hang out tonight. You know see tender lives up to its to its expectations. It's it's notoriety So sure enough. I got some responses. Some good some bad and among those That were good. One girl actually seemed like a potential suitor. And you know. She came from a good background. It was good for me She apparently was a successful startup. Expects it is and Seeing attractive so. I decided You know this girl said yes to this blatant invitation to mine so you know may as well go on to see what happens And so we we meet up in san francisco bar and you know she. She walks up to me so confidently and she says so. Did you order that whiskey. Like i wanted. And we've been texting back and forth after my blatant imitation. And you know she liked whiskey. And so i said oh i haven't What would you like and she told me you know. This glenn ditched twenty-three year. I don't know something. I'm not into whiskey by was expensive and so point being is you know she was. She was pretty Pretty confident in usually on first dates. there's kind of this era a little bit of politeness in awkwardness and social precepts. I think most people follow. She didn't follow any of that now. So we're having a couple of drinks share a couple of laughs and i've gone on over one hundred dates and i feel i find myself pretty comfortable on a first date but it's just on a whole new level of comfort and you know to the extensive seem quite taipei and and pretty cocky and You know telling me about her house that she owned in vegas and you know how she's the director of customer service at this start up that just amazing and just totally her own horn and i'm like okay.

00:05:28 - 00:10:04

Whatever that's cool You seem smart and interesting. Good looking so fine So the moment that caught me off guard and where the story starts to get interesting is when she certainly says. Hey robert You seem a little nicer than i thought you'd be. Wow is that a compliment really caught me off guard and suppose the so so i said well. What do you mean by that. She said well when you first message me on tinder you just basically asked me out we just said hey wanna hang out and so i took it to be that you were kind of a dick and you seem really nice nice guy in our conversation. Now that we met up and i said okay. That's cool. I mean i am still not really her remains. She said well. We're going to hook up tonight right. Wow just letting you know. Just let him know. And i said okay. Okay now did not say that. I'm so surprised robert so it gets more interesting because you know a couple you know. I took a couple of breaths. You know let it sink in. And then i was like i got. I gotta tell you you know. It just doesn't happen this way for me usually i'm the aggressor that's just kind of the the wake courtship. I feel works. No matter how quicker or strung out it might be over one or multiple dates. I feel caught off guard. And she's like if you don't want to hook up with me you don't have to no pressure check lease so So we go back to my place What was funny is You know since the expectation was pretty clear at this point but you know. I still wanted to be smooth and i said well should i put on a movie maybe You know instead of just going straight in so to speak So she says yes. In fact i've actually never net flicks in chilled. Why don't we do that. Oh you got you popped her netflix's chill jerry. I felt so great. It was awesome. I felt like i have finally was on top again so So basically things one thing led to another we. We chilled. And did you not flicks though. Of course that's to be assumed know for a little bit at least enough and then You know it was great. So so here's really. Where the kicker comes. I sort of brought it up. I'd say this night is a bit peculiar to me. And i hope you see where i'm coming from is there. Is there a reason. That you know maybe. Is this something you do often dinner. You just seem to like have had this like a well oiled machine like you're just seem very emotional and it's just peculiar to me And she said well. I didn't tell this to the last few guys. I hooked up with on you install. I'm slowly bracing myself for like this imminent terrible news a disease or something now. Sure enough No disease she. She simply said i'm engaged. And the reason. I choose to live this lifestyle despite being engaged is i've been with this guy since high school. She's twenty seven and she's like i have been with this guy since high school and we got engaged recently. As soon as we got engaged he basically said. I feel like i need to go have sex with other women. I just don't feel right about things right now and here. They've built a slight together. They've bought houses in vegas and the bay area and he just opened says. I want to have sex with other women and she. She's like okay. Wanted going to go have sex with other guys then answer. She got on tinder and sure enough. I happen to be one of those lucky victims. What was funny is After the date Couple of days.

00:10:04 - 00:15:07

After i didn't hear from her and i went back to my little tinder message history in just to see if you know she was there or maybe message me. She was gone. She there's like there's unmatching option tinder completely disappear like block. Somebody in she totally disappeared. She did not want to have anything to do with me. She did a drive by netflix. And chill exactly the way i got. I got a question for you robert. Were they working on getting back together. At that point or right. I think that it was still in the beginning throws of the the downward spiral. No i think it was It was too hard to tell that point for her. How did this end. did you spend the night eight. I actually got her to spend the night over. 'cause you're at your place right. Does she spend the night. She was at my place she spent the night she actually asked me after we chilled. Are she said. Should i leave right now or would you like me to stay over. I said well you know. I actually would like to cuddle little bit. Is that cool with you. Because i like to coddle cuddly dude. She's like will title send all that bullshit out otit anyway so We cuddled and It was cool and she stayed over till like four am and she's like all right. I'm out calm yellow. Oh she didn't stay until sunrise. Not even till sunrise. How does this make you feel. It was a bit of a role reversal in terms of that classic. I feel so used physically. You know like i'm just. He's a meat I actually did feel this kind of vacuum of like like you've probably seen movies or kind of heard that classic story of the girl who's just like takes the role of man and the man just wants to chase after her because of it because she's like this unique unicorn that just is you know a man's woman that just like wants to hook up in this kind of vacuum because like she's just like the sexual being you know the man thinks it's like this mystical amazing thing you know. I kind of felt that a little bit. But then i was like okay. She's engaged to clearly doesn't wanna see me again You know why. Would i spend time chasing her. She totally is just out to have fun. And she's acting totally. Cocky in is not trying to make an emotional connection whatsoever. So you know as much as it'd be fun to chase earn trying to hook up again and have some crazy exciting sex. No thanks but i could see other trying to do that. And i think that's probably why she unmatched me is probably the At least one of the previous three guys that she hooked up with on tinder. Apparently i'm sure at least one of them was like. Oh my gosh. You're still mysterious. Like have sex indian you leave. Oh my god. I want more of this feeling so when this happened in the early stages. We've actually talked about this idea on the show before women kind of control and and being the initiator and all this stuff. And she wasn't the first initiator. But you kinda initiatives. The whole night was that. Did you feel more attracted to that or was it more convenient while to be perfectly frank with you. I was actually turned off for and it was actually hard to get an erection at first sex with her but she was beautiful to me. She She just had a great body in was very sexually confident so once we started engaging physically i began to get turned on like if anything it was more of like. Wow this is very different. I'm intrigued by it. I'm actually not turned on And i i did feel emasculated. And i think those are two very intertwined things you know. Yeah you bring up a good point in getting something. Interesting is kind of that role reversal. It threw me off quite a bit. I it's off a bit sexually. Why did you feel emasculated by this. Will i think the number one reason was I'm used to this certain sort of courtship as secrets right. So like there's there's talking and there's like getting to know somebody and then there's like going in for a kiss or kind of starting to touch somebody And i feel like you know for the other ninety nine percent of my dating interactions or or romantic interactions. Like i'm the one that's doing that like. I'm being confident that the the woman is kind of batting her eyes away or kind of like being the one receiving At least at first you know especially on the first date so you know for for a woman to suddenly you know.

00:15:07 - 00:20:02

Take these So-called masculine roles of courtship the courtship sequence on it was it was kind of like Just trying to recite the alphabet backwards to me. I think that's what threw me off in emasculated me because i just didn't know what to do. I guess i built these habits in you. Know there's these societal kinda programming's of like hey. This is what the guy does in that. This is what the girl does but she was just like. This is what. I want your in my reality now. And and so i kind of had to submit in a way you know i think a lot of men would have been quite off put by it or maybe even put up a fight and tried to sort of reverse polarity back but i was just like this is interesting so by her kind of driving the situation and stealing your roles in a way you kind of felt like you didn't earn it right like you didn't work for it. That's another interesting point. Yeah i think that is another part of the chase that's alluring and You know i I definitely could see that. That was another piece as well. There's definitely less meaning. And i'm at the age too where i've had ample experience with hookups and i think i've reached that point where i get enjoyment out of getting to know somebody and then approaching the sexuality from a point of you know we have this this bond in that is in additional. Turn on and i was sort of trying to establish that with her as well. In a sort of prolonging the bar interaction actually. I found myself doing that. You know kind of that romantic piece of like let's get to know each other you know. Let's not necessarily be friends but let's at least like kind of know each other in snippets other out in. She was here she was just like gonna hook up on. Even if we're not well. I it was. Bench made my whiskey. I mean that's actually kind of a masculine opener. Oh absolutely and that drink is quite nascar as well. So you know she she could just be that way or it could just be a behavior. She's developed as a result of the you know the the situation with her fiance. One of the things i was you were talking about that. I wanted to kind of dive a little bit more into was he said at the beginning. A doesn't feel a part of the system for heard lee is so kind of hinted at zero point. Where want her to lead a little bit more or for that shift to happen later. Down the road in a relationship. Yeah i think. I think that it. I i really do think in heterosexual and homosexual relationships they. The polarity must be different. There's there's this book might have heard of called away of the superior man by david data absolutely talks about sexual polarity and if exotic masculine feminine. Yeah the yen in the game. You know it's a timeless kind of factor. And i think you know i've met straight men who are powerful executives but when it come home they wanna be you know let it home they wanna just totally shut off and they wanna be submissive rape and the woman might even be just a stay at home woman but she kinda dominates at home you know. She dominates in. He wants to shut off So but the bottom line is they both have different polarities so that might switch different parts in the relationship to. That's where role play comes in in sexuality knows your you know some people take it pretty far with strap on dildos and man in the ass by about that. Actually i think we should save that for another. Oh remind me to call that person as a guest okay. We're gonna save that for another episode. I'm excited that one. We might have to extend that one to like an hour robert. This is mind boggling to me because what you described is something that is like a fantasy for most men you send out twenty messages twenty of the same message on tinder to all these women you get someone to bite they come home with you. There's no hoopla hook up and then they leave before the sunrises and then they match you so you never have to talk to them again.

00:20:02 - 00:25:06

I mean on paper. You just describe the perfect scenario for most tender users. So it's mind boggling to me that this is leaving you with a little bit of emptiness. I think there's a couple of factors at play here. You know in terms of my feelings so i i've gone on hundreds of dates. I've been told no thousands of times on the street at clubs at bars through friends through online dating. I'm also in sales. And there's this funny thing that i always tell people whether i'm managing them or or if it's managing myself in to get a yes you've got to stand on a mountain of knows i pride myself. I think i do pretty well with women. I feel pretty confident. I've worked pretty hard on myself to know what i want. And i think this is just a numbers game. It's just you know. I sent out some messages. I got on tinder and his just happened to be. You know one of those times. Statistically now actually i do have something interesting statistic that came about when i did another social experiments. So this won't. I don't know how much time we have. But this will just take a second to talk about. So i matched with forty women. Message twenty those with the social test number one which was hey on a hang out so you know we already talked about those stats now. The second social experiment. I did on the next set of twenty that i matched with his. Hey are you opposed to hooking up winky face. So i now i got even more blatant i said do you want. Would you hook up with me. You know wasn't even do you wanna hang out it. Was you wanna hook up. But i did it in a very strategic way. Now i'll repeat i said. Are you opposed to hooking up so so they didn't have to get pigeonholed in a corner and say you know yes or no. It was more of like a double negative. Like oh well you know not opposed to it so sh- so here's what happened here. The results you're going to actually. I'm just going to say so. You guys probably have a number in your head of how many girls actually said. Let me write it down. i. I'm gonna write it down. I i wrote it down. I'm showing it to our producer. Julie perfect all right so out of those twenty ten said yes down. That's double my guess. Ten fifty percent of women. You know it's interesting. We had another episode from a woman's perspective about a guy that sexed hair like pretty much said similar types of messaging and we all questioned like has to work on someone guys thing. This is okay and i guess we found. It must be a product of the app. Right it's because tender is known as a hookup app. So maybe there are more women who are willing messages on tinder ignore them. That was a little different. Here was Specifically what robert was saying about the wording right. There's one like hey do you want to hook up versus would you be opposed to. It's almost for me. It feels softer more approachable way to put it and you know when he faces always nice weight when you say. Ten women agreed. What did you what did they say back because when you do a double negative. I get confused on the answer. That's a great question. So it wasn't they didn't all just say you know latently yes. It wasn't like a simple black and white answer The one that i counted as yes said things such as well. It actually rains one of them. Like fuck ya'll hookup. And then one of his like yeah she. She had some pretty party like pictures took but You know it ranged from that all the way to in the right situation i would hook up so the magic of the wording is straight out. Do you wanna hook up. That's immediate but if you asked would you be opposed to hooking up winky face. that's like would you be opposed to hooking up in the near future in the next ten years or so so it's like yeah sure i'd be open to eventually. Oh totally and part of Women's psychology actually. Is you know they. I think they most women. At least the ones i've encountered they want to feel an emotional connection before they you know allow themselves to become physically intimate with somebody and i think they also don't wanna have to give a direct answer to something that you know Committed like so.

00:25:06 - 00:30:02

So i think being cute adding the winky face You know being direct. It definitely Takes the pressure off. But at the same time you're benefit now is a man is that they have now basically said yes. I think once you have that first date you're going to have More of a benefit going into it that winky faces clutch super born. Well i think the sum is greater than the pieces. I think it's the the wiki face plus the the indirect negative Saying are you opposed and another girl. I actually ask a good girlfriend of mine about this. Which he five and she's like well. You know what i'd be. Thinking is if i like the guy like if he looks cute as attorney profile like i might be just be saying yes because i want to change him. Wow that's a pretty convoluted answer. He looks like a nice project to work on robert. I'm trying to think of what i would say. If someone send that to me on tender. And i probably wouldn't match them right away. I probably say something like. I'm not that type of girl got a couple of those. And what did you say back to them or did you just not anything. Oh i just unmatched them. They were a did this oliver again. This scenario you just told us with your tender girl. Is there anything you would have done. Differently. Probably not drink as much a being honest as a matter of fact i mean literally could have gone into that thing sober instill hooked up with her. I mean i think you a. You're you're looking for. Maybe a more psychological answer i think going into it a little more open minded. I probably would have had a little more fun. i think. I think the biggest mistake i made is a novice. Data was always being focused on this outcome. And i found that the more focused on the moment and just kind of taking it all in going from from that place as cliche as that sounds I think it makes for a better date in a better dating life so You know. I think i was focused with this situation. I was focused on this outcome. There was actually not hooking up and then suddenly. She's like forcing different outcome that she wanted. Which was very unexpected. And so i was like grappling with that. And i think as i was as my brain was grappling with that. I was trying to say wait. What's going on here all up. Your dick sounds really attractive. You must have been practicing. And one of your improvisations. There's a great time to to do some takeaways Do you have any takeaways. I would say so my take away I love robert what you said about being open minded because especially with tender. You never know what you're going to get yourself into. So i guess being open minded and be like i'm just gonna go with the flow and my my intentions are to have a good time and get to know someone different. My second take away. Is i think for again a setting your intentions. And when you're using certain apps like tinder and when you message back and forth be very clear about what your intentions are so again. We've talked about this before. I actually appreciate the tax. Because it's very intentional. Okay i'm i'm very clear on what you want some of the takeaways. I have kind of build off. What you said about N also what you said robert about being in the moment and kind of bringing up my improv background. Whatever the things that we focus on. Improvisation is a very relationship oriented experience. Because there's literally nothing else there but the other person so you have to be very connected and very president in the moment with the person and when you start going more about the process rather than the goal you get to create something that the that you to have and i think that's a great methodology or mindset the gopher dating when you're going to go date someone don't worry about getting into their pants be there in the moment with them. Create that moment you'll never have that again into focus on that to just be really present and create it together i think that's a great takeaway and also another takeaway people try. Try different stuff. What are the things robert did. He's like. I'm just going to try this and see what happens. He nali great. Get a great story from it but also got a great experience and a better understanding of things of who he is. And what's important to him. So i want all you listeners. Out there is to to try some different things.

00:30:02 - 00:35:01

Be open to trying something that you've never done before and you sort of happens you know what michael you just Inspired me to do something. Robert union smart me to do something as well I'm gonna message twenty guys tonight. I'm gonna use that same line on tinder and i will report back in our next episode. What's the line again. Would you be opposed to hooking up. Winky face got it. Okay i have a prediction of the nana. Please god jesus yes. You're going to get. But i gotta know about my sample. Because did you message all the women that you wanted to match with or did you just swipe right for everyone and match and message all of them. Oh yeah it was a shotgun approach. I wasn't even looking just to see what happens. One one important clarification you is is make sure you make sure you say are you opposed to hooking up. Not would you a little too strong. I think so. Be a little more quick. I predict hundred. People will say as julie's predicting one hundred percent. I predict a hundred percent. I think. I think there's going to be one grad student guy with thick glasses. Who's going to be like now. I feel like. I'm not going to get any knows but i make a few matches. Sorry listeners you're not gonna. You're going to be a little late by the time you hear this. I can imagine like some guys are ready like searching for you on monday. Sorry guys already. This is so exciting. Oh this is so exciting. Okay let's go onto our question of the day which actually relates to robert story the second half of your story so we have a girl named michelle who asked. I been with the same person. Since i was in high school and i feel like some people think i need to go through a slutty phase. I so my wild oats Do you think that something necessary in having a healthy relationship you know. It's funny you say that because lately i've been around a lot of married couples and i'm talking about people married thirty forty fifty years Seeming very happy and a lot of them are like high school sweethearts and have never really had anything else. I don't think that would work for me by any means but it just keeps seeming like. That's that's a constant story is their high school sweethearts and hasn't been anyone else or you know. Barely anyone else and they see over all. yeah. I feel like back in the day before dating apps. There weren't that many options presented to you. So you just kind of stick with one person. You're like that's pretty good. And by the time the apps came out and all the options were presented. You're both like all and ugly. That you're like i can't get anybody else i think. In this day and age we presented with so many options that those curiosities do come up and if they don't come up early in a relationship they will come up eventually and probably when you're married with kids so i personally believe people should date around before they settle with someone now data rome or sex around. Can you date around without sexing around. Is that possible. These days i. I would think so. People would like to just go and meet people. But i'm guessing you mean sex around. Yeah i was saying you should sleep with lots of people. One hundred ten percent agree deep. It all experiment. Get to know yourself. It's annoying lake it's gonna just add value in richness to the the when when you finally wanna to settle down for a relationship in you know you're gonna know the meaning From a first hand perspective of you know the the enjoyment of going deeper with somebody and you can't really do that until you experience the emptiness of just hooking up or just going on dates and not having a future to it in gosh for years you know. I'm in my thirties now. And i'm only starting to like seed at enjoyment and you know. I'm i'm pretty social guy and i love women but You know. I think. I'm just finally starting to scratch that surface of like okay. I deeply get the meaning of like actually striking up a meaningful relationship with with somebody a significant other and You know pursuing so. You just can't do that until you get out their sled up a little bit. Let me just throw out one. More little piece of evidence for my side of the old way So there's been studies done about arranged marriages countries and be a for the arranged marriage.

00:35:01 - 00:36:51

Is you know they often don't know the person at all the family brings together matchmakers. Kinda bring them together or family members bringing together and one of the things that a that has been consistent is that it's not that they marry each other and then fall in love. It's that they they fall in love and marry each other. What they do is they marry each other and then learn to lobby each other and it's been shown that they have happier marriages in general in those situations. I'm not saying that that's necessarily the answer but there's something to be said about that. I think absolutely. I do believe people in arranged marriages make an effort to stay together and learn to love each other. I do believe in that. The only reason why that wouldn't work in our society is because it's not part of our system. We're just not conditioned to think that way into work that way. We live in a society where we want to believe. We chose our partner. That was our choice. We chase after them. We worked for that so if someone else is dictating that choice for us. We're not gonna love that person as much so you're saying that we need to start a movement of nothing that arranged marriages. That sounds awful. All right let's wrap this up. Don't forget listeners. At home with you can submit your stories and remember. We can always keep you anonymous. We want to protect your identity and the people involved in your story last but not least we wanna thank robert for being on the show robert. My pleasure guys had a lot of fun michael. What's our last line. Stay dateable apple podcasts. Recorded in san francisco we would like to thank our sponsor five hundred branches for making this happen to connect with us visit date. Able podcast dot com.