S15E6: Rethinking Sex w/ Christine Emba

00:00:01 - 00:05:09

The dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that The Huffington Post calls one of the top ten podcasts about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about everything from sex parties to sex droughts, date fails to diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host UA Shu, former dating coach turned dating sociologist. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Kraft chick as we explore this crazy dateable world. Another week, another episode of the day will podcast, hey everyone, welcome. We are the dateable podcast and we are here to talk about everything modern dating. And we get deep, we dig dig dig. The topics just never run out, but I am excited about today's topic because we actually got approached by Christine emba and she has a book called rethinking sex, which you probably have gathered given the title of this episode. And when we were reading this book, I mean, first of all, it was, you know, we always love sex topics, and it's always interesting. But what's fascinating about this is it goes beyond sex to more of gender roles. A lot of stuff we've been talking about for quite some time. She was able to put a lot of good vocabulary around. Just how feminism has changed the landscape for women, but maybe not in the way that we actually want. How many times have you talked to a friend that's like, I just want a guide to freaking approach me in real life? Make the first move. But we've made it that your sexual harasser. It's too much to do that. So it's a really fine line of the progression, but also not having us be at a standstill. And that's kind of what's happened with modern day day. You know, we don't want to undermine the progress that we have made, and you'll hear in this episode as well. But with everything in life, their consequences. And we are facing those consequences in sex right now. And we hope that this episode will shed more light on what is the confusion that you may be experiencing, you're not alone, and hopefully it will inspire you to have more of these conversations. There's no solution, but we can be talking about this more openly. Yes. And one of our favorite terms undateable relationship chicken. I feel like that has stemmed from this that, you know, what we defined as relationship chicken is when basically no one wants to show their cards. No one wants to make the move. Everyone says they want one thing when it comes to taking relationships and they do the exact opposite. And we always say, are you looking for a soulmate or a stalemate? Because all that gets you is nothing. And I think that is kind of the consequence that's come from all this. Yeah, it's like we say things without thinking about it because it's like a knee jerk reaction. We feel like we should say these things were as just part of our system. And I think we're in a very interesting time right now where we are inspired to pause and think before we speak and to really get down to why do I even think this way, right? Unraveling the systems that have built around us and we are built within and hopefully breaking free of all of that. Yeah. I mean, our society is just so go, go, go. I think that's a big piece of it. And we don't think about that when it comes to dating, but it's every part of life, right? It's like there's this award if you're the busiest. And I think that makes us stop to think, what is it that we're actually doing and what is it that we actually want? And we think we're actively doing all this stuff when we're just going through the motions. Well, same with sex, right? It's like, yeah. People talk about sex, like it's some sort of video game that they've unlocked the next level. It's like yeah, I'm just having a lot of sex and I'm fucking like a man, you know, like the whole Sex and the City thing or I don't get attached anymore after sex. We feel like we have to say these things to protect ourselves and it's for some reason we're bragging about that. But sex is part of our human connection and emotions. It's really hard to dissociate it too. For some reason we've overcorrected to the other side of disassociating and just treating sex just as sex. There's so much unraveling that we need to do as a society. And again, we don't want to the advancements that we've made those should not be under, but at all, but it's almost like we've gone so extreme that we need to course cracked. We put up on Instagram a quote around being needy. I feel like for years, you heard like, that was the detriment, to be needy. But I feel like when I was told not to be needy, all I did was hold it in because I have the same needs. They didn't magically go away because I was told not to be BD. I just held it in and then I got upset when someone was in a mind reader. And I feel like we've been taught like all the stuff to play it cool and that's I think the core of relationship chicken is you don't want to show your cards. You don't want to say that you're the one with the more feelings, but I think when you can get to a point that you're just like fuck it, that's when things start to click because who cares if someone they sure need it.

00:05:09 - 00:10:13

Like if they're not beating your deeds, then exactly you want to be with. I used to preempt every sexual encounter by leaving their house early because I didn't want to overstay my welcome and come off as cool. And then I would get home and just sit in my apartment alone and thinking, well, that would have been nice to stay and cuddle, but you know, I had to protect myself by thinking back, why couldn't I just openly say, I really prefer to hang out for a little bit after sex, like it makes me feel good and just be more open about stating who I am, and if you're on board with that, let's proceed. And if you're not, then I'm going to leave. And you don't even know if they liked it. They may be why did you be there all day? I think it could even just be as simple as I'm having so much fun. This has been so amazing. It cuddly. Why would someone say that's a terrible thing to say? Right. All you're saying is I enjoy being with you. Like, why would that be? Something we need to hide. When you think about it logically. Right, exactly. And then on the flip side, I feel like there's so many people out there who've told me I guess so emotionally attached after sex that I have this no sex rule for the first three months or whatever. Like this arbitrary rule. And now looking back on those conversations, you have to question why set those rules without the other person in mind. You're just setting these rules for yourself. They're really based on nothing. Instead of just communicating with the people you're interacting with. And let them know what's going on. It's like depriving yourself of something that's so pleasurable. In that it's a self fulfilling prophecy. I've definitely been here before that I'm like, I'm gonna hold out. I'm not gonna have sex right away. And then they end up ghosting or ending it, and then you're like, oh, Dodge the bullet. But at the same time, I did you Dodge a bullet, or were you just being standoffish and someone could sense that energy that you're not really infested in this? I think if you had said, hey, I take sex seriously or this means a lot to me. I want to get to know you better, but still give signs that you're interested in developing something and by signs, I mean saying it. Like why are we so afraid to say stuff we think that people understand our Morse code that we're putting out there? That is what it feels like sometimes. Is that truly is what it feels like sometimes. I would hold resentment. How come this person didn't hear what I didn't say? How did they not read my mind? Get the signals. Oh my God. What time would I was on batch dot com this was years ago. I got an entire message in Morse code. It was set the entire message was sent that way. And then my friend got the same one. I clearly was a copy and paste. You just don't even know how to respond to something like that. So it's the same with this. You're not giving anyone. Anything to go off of. Oh my gosh, it's so weird. We're so weird with communication. Why? I really wish, you know, I feel like we talk about being vulnerable. It's such a buzz word right, be vulnerable. And I think people take it to be, let me disclose all my deep dark secrets. And trauma dump on this person and have a therapy session with my date. And that is not what being vulnerable means. I think just saying that you're having a good time, it seems so simple, yet it's so difficult for so many of us to do. And I was there for years. I remember I had a friend that was married and he was like, oh, did you text him and say you had a good time? I would do that. This guy is so clueless. He's married. He's out of the game. And I'm looking back at it and I'm like, of course, like I went with out with, would want to hear that. Like, why would someone want to hear that? And you were not being needy, you're just being normal. You're just calming. It's so weird. Like, why does dating? This kind of reminds me of like the lowest common denominator episode we did a few weeks ago. Why are there so many arbitrary rules and ways of being dating that don't apply to anything else in life? Like if you met up with like a colleague, of course you would text them the next day or email them and be like, it was a really great to meet you. If you didn't try to be freaking rude. Right. I truly believe 90% of the stress we face in dating is from the non communication. It's the stories we make up during the periods of non communication. I still remember really liking this guy seeing him and asking if you want to hang out the next Wednesday and he's like, I'm busy next Wednesday, how about Thursday? Instead of asking, oh, what are you doing Wednesday? I made up this story in my mind that he's going on another date. He was seeing all these other people and he was having this party life and later to find out from his friends that he was visiting his parents. Like, why? Why did I even put myself through that? I could have just simply asked, oh, what are you doing? How if you had a friend that was away, you would just be like, oh, what's going on? Yeah, what's going on? Would it be? Oh my God, there.

00:10:13 - 00:15:08

Hey, get with another fried. They have another life outside of me. Dare they? It's so weird. I think we obviously need to rethink sex. Hence the title of this episode. We need to rethink all of dating. All of it. Entire gamut of love dating relationship sex, all of it needs to be. Rethought. It needs a facelift. It needs serious Botox. Or maybe not even about Botox, just like band aid solutions. That's true. It's true. Full face lift. Yeah, like a whole new face. I can not look the same anymore or similar. It's just, we need to, it's an upheaval, like we need a change everything. But we're slowly getting there. How are we getting there? One is you're listening to this podcast and this is something that we're very passionate about. Please join the movement because we can't keep dating like this if we keep dating like this, we're all gonna end up in dating hell and you're gonna end up hating everyone and not wanting to be in relationships or communicate or connect with other human beings, so please come on board this movement. This is step number one, but step number two, I realize this is a major lightbulb moment for me this past week. I was kind of like being judgy on some of my friends relationships and sometimes I get in like this mode of like my friends can do so much better. I really think they deserve better people in their lives. And I realized I was being judgy because I needed to reflect on my own relationship whenever I comment on other people's lives, it's a reflection of what I am experiencing in my own life. So same thing with dating, if you are commenting about bad dating behavior, bad dating culture, look to yourself first and see if you have been part of that because I certainly realized that this week is like, oh, I'm commenting on other people's relationships because I'm not working on the problems in my own relationship. Like, who am I to judge other people? I just had it like the exact epiphany as you said it took me a while you say that that I have been doing the exact same thing. And that's an easy thing is to comment on external things, right? Other people. Yeah, I'm above it all. I still remember when I went to group relationship therapy with my ex and it was two weekends, right? And I remember telling you this, Julie, like the first weekend, were like, we have no problems compared to these people. They've got big problems. They all have issues, and then by second week when we broke up, ours are so bad we don't even know them, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a fucking tsunami of the issues. Well, that rings just too true. I feel like that is everything in life, it all comes back to us. And that's the hardest person. It's the hardest thing to face as yourself, but ultimately that's the change. That's the only real change and I think it's easy to blame all this other stuff and to look down on people and all the external, but the hard work really does come from looking within. It does. It does. And we're going to do that in this episode. Yes. Exactly. Okay. Well, before we get into this episode at dateable podcast, that's our Instagram. We've been, you know, experimenting with more video content. We're putting up all sorts of things lately. We have a mission. If you want to get on this movement, make sure you're following us there too, because I was thinking about this that a lot of times, you know, we say all this stuff on the podcast and clearly that's a great way to bring it up. But I feel like sometimes seeing something written that's like bite size, it just drives at home. So even if you've maybe heard something a couple times, whether it's from this podcast or the myriad of other dating sources out there, but sometimes just seeing it that one more time set a different way will be like, yep, that's exactly what I need. Kind of like what UA just did to me right now. With that. So definitely follow us at dateable podcast. Love in the time of Corona. I feel like, you know, my heart has been warmed this week. We've seen so many people traveling and just being like leading up a London. Yeah, like who's in whatever location you're at. This has happened a couple times now. What a great way for people to connect. I also was like very heartworm that someone wrote about a relationship that they just got into. They talked about the values that they were looking of how they wanted to feel and that this person checked it off. And someone was like, oh, can I share this in another group and they were like, I prefer not to because this is the group of the people that's kind of been with me along this journey. And I'm not really trying to put this on the Internet, like I'm trying to share it with this group. So really tight knit group. We still have the sounding board, UA and I go once a month, but also the group meets pretty much weekly on the weekly sound offs and phenomenal host team.

00:15:08 - 00:20:01

If you're feeling alone in dating, let's say all your friends are coupled off. They just don't get what you're going through. These are the people that got your back. So you can always join dateable podcast dot com slash sounding board. For sure. Okay, well, that's it for announcements before we get into it. Let's hear a message from our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by topic dot com. Do you know what's a good way to escape the challenges of dating? How about indulging yourself in some true crime stories? We're excited to introduce topic, the only streaming service that hand picks this programming for the viewer who values high quality international true crime, mysteries, and thrillers. Some of my favorite shows have been catching a killer. It gives viewers this unprecedented behind the scenes access to real life homicide investigations. Each episode covers one major crime investigation from start to finish. It's raw and voyeuristic, just the way I like it. 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Now you can sit with purpose and explore brands that are shifting in industry while amplifying voices often left unheard. Find your new favorite drinks while supporting the diverse stories that make them great. Show your support and raise a glass to the spirit of representation and belonging. All while discovering incredible drinks with stories worth celebrating. Just download the drizzly app or go to drizzly dot com that's DRI dot com to start sipping with purpose. Okay, let's hear it from Christine emba. So we're talking about sex and talking about how we view sex. What is our relationship to sex, especially post the me too world? And what is this post sexual revolution looking like, especially with a feminist movement and people being a little bit confused when it comes to dating, especially who makes the first move and who's doing what, basically. So we've got Christina embra with us today. She is columnist for The Washington Post writing about ideas and society, she's the author of rethinking sex. She's in her early 30s, lives in Washington, D.C., been there for 6 years, originally from Richmond, Virginia, and she's in a monogamous relationship. Hi Christine. Hi, how are you? We are fabulous, and you are with us from The Washington Post office today, which is so official. It's very cool. We've never seen the inside of Washington Post, so that's cool. We can see that. And then, you know, we always love talking about sex and let's just start with that. Let's start with your own relationship with sex. What made you start rethinking sex? So as a journalist, you know, I've always been interested in questions of culture and society and ethics, actually my official beat at the Washington post is ideas in society, which is broad enough to be almost anything. But you know, I write a lot about sort of gender and relationships and what we owe to each other and obviously I'm sort of a young woman in the world. And during the me too moment, I was covering that in columns pretty frequently. It was a galvanizing moment for me in a way. In that it showed that many of the problems with sex and sexual culture that we thought we had moved past with the sexual revolution, even the feminist movements, had not actually gone away, you know, these things were still present. Some of the me too cases, the high profile ones, the Harvey Weinstein, et cetera, had kind of clear answers as to what was wrong. Like, no, you can't actually force your underling to have sex with you in a hotel room. That's a bad thing to do. But then there were the ones the other ones, the ones that actually went the most viral. Those surface tricky issues that weren't so easily resolved. The whole debacle with Aziz Ansari and babe dot net and the woman who said he was the worst date of her life. You had stories like cat person, you know, the new Yorker short story that was like their most read piece of fiction ever, I think. I'm not familiar with cat person. I don't think I've heard that. Interesting. Oh wow, okay, so this was like a piece of short fiction published by the magazine, The New Yorker.

00:20:01 - 00:25:01

I think in early 2018. So kind of right at the peak of the me too movement. And it was about a young woman. It was written from like the close third person. A college student who goes on a date with an older guy and she has sex with him and doesn't like it. Like she doesn't want to, but she sort of feels like she should. And so she has sex with him and it's kind of narrated from her perspective being like, why am I doing this? I guess like I'm going to sort of perform this thing and then they stop seeing each other and he censor some sort of terrible text at the end. And that's like the whole story. It's about a young woman who goes on a date and has sex that she doesn't really want, but she feels like she should. And so many people seem to relate to that. There were sort of floods I think pieces, tweets, I talked to a lot of people who were like, yeah, that's normal. That's dating now. This is sort of the normal experience. And a case like that, you know, a story like that is not as clear as Harvey Weinstein, who is a rapist. It's not rape or obviously sexual assault, and yet it's not good. You know who is clearly not a good experience. And the fact that so many young women were like, yeah, that's the normal, that's the normative experience. To me, in so many young men were like, why are you so upset? Like, I don't know how I feel about this. I feel targeted. I'm very conflicted about this. Was fascinating to me because like if that's the norm, something is very wrong. There are these issues underlying it that are causing people a lot of sort of pain and sadness. So I wanted to dig into those tensions a little bit more and take stock of where we were as a culture. You know, figuring out what was ailing our sexual culture kind of this sort of confusion and unpleasantness is the norm. You know, what assumptions about sex are we holding that serving us? Where did we think the sexual revolution should have taken us? And where did we end up? And you know what ethic do we need to determine whether sex is good or not if consent is not enough, which, you know, in many of these cases, where people are consenting to sex, you know, it's consensual, but still sad or upsetting or maybe even deeply traumatic. It's still bad. What else should we be doing here? When I was reading your book, there was this one image that I held in my mind. This happened in college, and this has been years at this point. And I remember driving by this car and this guy basically having sex with this girl that was super out of it. Like she was super drunk, and he was just like, gave us a thumbs up as we drove by. He was outside in his car. It was the most horrifying thing I've ever seen. Wow. Obviously I don't know what happened, a 100%, but she might have given consent. It wasn't like a total, it wasn't like he was raping this girl and pure daylight, but there were so many factors of why this was not okay. So I feel like we've moved from this no is no to yes is yes, consent culture. How do you think consent has changed over the last decade? I mean, I think so much of our conversation about sex right now is has moved towards like the pendulum is swung sort of from pre sexual revolution, no you shouldn't be doing anything. Don't have sex at all. It's bad. You know, so many restrictions around sex to a sense of like, okay, well now we don't want to restrict people. We should have as few limitations as possible, as long as you consent, you know, everything that kind of happens after consent. If you've got that is okay, or at least can't be criticized. And I think in this moment, so much of our conversation around sex revolves around sort of defining the limits, right? How far something can go before it crosses the line and becomes outrageous or even illegal, you know, actively nonconsensual. My question has always been. And in this book, especially is, you know, why do we settle for asking what's legal rather than what's actively good, good for us, good for the other person, creating the sexual encounters in relationships that we actually really want. You know, consent is an essential baseline, obviously. We have to have consent. It's taken us a long time, frankly, to even get to the place where we can say no means no one yes mean like yes. But consent is a floor. It never should have been the ceiling. And so if consent is the only standard by which we're judging sex, we're kind of punting on really big questions like whether that consent was fairly gotten, whether it's even good for us to be doing what we've gotten consent to do. And then the big ones that I think we don't talk enough about as a society and thus haven't come to a strong agreement or norm about. You know, what exactly it takes for a sexual encounter to be actually ethical and moral. Good. Right. And then there's the gray area of all of this is Margaret Cho just at the stand up the other day and she's like, sometimes it's about consent or relent. I'm just relenting to this. Yes, let's just go with it. And she was saying, those are the times that I could have used my time better.

00:25:02 - 00:30:02

But, you know, the gray area is where I think modern dating gets a little confusing for so many is well do I need to look for that clear sign or who's making the first move? Who's leaning in for that first kiss? Is that okay to go in for the hug? Is there kind of a general mindset we can have around this so that we can stop questioning? Because now we're at a place of inaction. People are stilted. They are thinking I can make a move. I can't do anything. I'm just not going to step forward and wait for her to make the move. Is there a general thinking that we can shift around this so that we actually do something about it? Yeah, that's such an interesting question. You know, I interview a lot of people for rethinking sex and one of the things that became evident was exactly what you're saying that, because it feels like they're so few, like the norms are not clear around what people should be doing. And especially post me too, people are scared of doing the wrong thing. Nobody feels comfortable doing much of anything at all. Like I talked to one guy who lives in San Francisco who was like, well, I would never ask out a woman at work or something. That's like handing someone a loaded shotgun. That's extreme, but a lot of people feel that way. A lot of people. Yes. Yeah. And then on the side of many women, I talk to women who are like, yeah, I'd like to be asked out. You know, or I want a relationship, but also I've had so many of these encounters with guys where I had sex because I thought I should, and I wasn't treated very well, and now I'm just sort of over men, like I'm not right. It's not appealing to me anymore. And so nobody, you know, both sides still want a relationship on some level, but feel kind of almost incompetent in getting there. And I think one of the things that has perhaps changed or that seems problematic for dating in this moment is this idea of thinking about things sort of transactionally and in sort of a defensive legal mindset where you're trying to figure out what can I almost either what can I get away with without it being bad or like what do I have to steer clear of because of fear. It's a mindset that doesn't, it's not conducive to sort of meeting the other person in any way. It's fear based and it's limiting. I think what you said, I mean that resonates so much with people in our community, Friends of mine. I've talked to that are all four feminism, right? Like we never want to go back to the days where women are seen as inferior and just sexual objects. I don't think anyone is saying that. But then the outside, you kind of alluded to is, did we actually get the result that we wanted from feminism? Now we have the situation where maybe we'd want that person at work to make a move, but they are afraid to do so. So it's almost like you actually had a quote that I love is like, we're liberated, but we're miserable. Why do you think it's an issue that, you know, that women are now feeling like we have this feminism that's in our favor, but we're not actually getting the result we want. Yeah, I feel like that's one of the chapters in the book, we're liberated, but we're miserable that people related to sort of the most. And you know, it's strange. I talk about the idea of heterops, which was coined by the writer asa Saracen, and she describes it as a mode of feeling that's expressed in the form of regret embarrassment and hopelessness about the straight experience and often one kind of performed by women. I wish I was not into men. Yeah. And it's funny because this pessimism comes at a moment when you might expect that we'd be really excited about it. You know, we're kind of living in a golden age of sexual freedom, the age of first marriage is rising. It's more acceptable to remain single or have premarital sex. But the thing is, I think getting rid of the old rules and replacing him with just like the sort of lowest bare minimum norm of consent was supposed to free us up to do a bunch of things and make us happy, but without any sort of real structure or understanding of what the aim is, what they're supposed to do, many people today feel a bit lost. I think that the question of boundaries actually becomes really important because if we're actually able to create a positive sexual norm sort of create and socialize norms for each other, four men and women for what we expect from each other and what we want. We're kind of defining we can define the scope of both what isn't wanted and then lay out a space for everything that might actually be possible and sort of enough limitations that people kind of feel directed in a way. And that is something that we're missing. So then in the subjects that you interviewed for your book, where they have this hetero pessimism and there are kind of giving up on each other and on relationships. What do they do instead? What's the alternative? Yeah, they just now go for same sex relationships like what happens. Yeah. I mean, honestly, I was surprised by the number of women I talked to who were had.

00:30:03 - 00:35:03

Who kind of weren't dating or were like, well, I feel more comfortable sort of not dating men or dating non binary people, or sort of exploring my such value in other ways because I just, I've been hurt too many times by the opposite sex. And everybody who said that, you know, sort of like this seems like I feel like this is sort of a taboo and I don't know bad for feminists and I feel like it's a stereotype like woman is hurt my man becomes a lesbian. But at the same time, that is kind of what I'm doing and I was really surprised by that. Like are people just giving up? Do you feel like do you feel like they're just not? I mean, we know we've heard in the Atlantic they coined it like the sex recession that we're in. And a lot of that was following me too. I guess how do we get to where we are right now that we're empowered men and women, I would say, like women obviously have a lot more rights than we once did and a lot of really great things that are going for partnerships in today's world. But clearly some drawbacks like your pointing out. And then men too, I'd argue, do not have to fit into one stereotype anymore. So there's a lot of positives, but then there's all this fallout that you're talking about. Like, how do we get to this fallout situation? Yeah, well, one of the things that I talk about in rethinking sex is sort of acknowledging, honestly, where we are and sort of pushing back against kind of myths that we may have been sort of sold about sex in our current and extremely liberated sexual culture, basically. And I think that actually being honest about what sex really means what we want from us, what would really be good is what can help us kind of move forward from not just being like, oh, everything is terrible. A sexual culture is terrible to that. Okay, now what? How do we change it for the better? And I identify in the book a couple of things that I think are ripe for reconsideration in the way that we talk about and understand sex. And one of them is, well, there are a couple and I guess I can lay them out. One is, first of all, the idea that just sex is an activity like any other, basically. I feel like there is a sort of a common myth almost that, you know, sex shouldn't mean very much. You know, it's just like a thing that we that people do for fun and it's like, a handshake, but maybe you might have a baby and so be careful. But as long as you get consent, it shouldn't be a big deal. And yet, you know, I talked to so many women and men who would say, well, actually, I find sex really meaningful, but you know, I feel like I shouldn't, so I just have it with people and then I don't like the way that I feel afterwards. And so one thing could be just like being honest about what these encounters mean to us might allow us then to ask for what we want and to sort of form our dating life and our relationships in a direction that actually brings us towards towards the good that we're looking for. You know, another one is like the idea that, you know, the optimal way to be in sort of a dating environment or sort of as a young person in the world is like to be free to not catch feelings. To not commit and not be tied down to somebody because that's actually really lame and catching feelings is lame when actually a lot of people are like, well, actually I do really want to actually kind of the feelings are the best part and actually like this myth that I picked up from watching Sex and the City that sold is like, well, this is obviously people behave. It's not correct for me. And so being able to be honest about sort of, okay, what do you actually want? Is this sort of like idea of individualism and autonomy actually serving us? If not, then maybe we can be honest about wanting relationship wanting to depend upon or be cared for by another person and pursue that instead. I think in some ways the sort of post sexual revolution moment sort of pushed us to away from repression and towards this idea of total liberation as the best outcome and the goal that everybody should be reaching for. I suggesting in the book actually that maybe we can reconsider that and see what actually kind of works for us. Well, I think that's exactly it, 'cause I feel like I'm a huge sex of the city fan as UA and everyone else, all this podcast probably knows. And I think it did a lot for us. I don't want to diminish what it did for us. I feel like, as women, just taking the backseat and following rules to get a guy, that wasn't healthy either. But looking back at rewatching it, it's kind of cringe sometimes, you know? It's just there is such like there's no emotions that go into anything. It's like this whole like having sex like men. But that's also diminishing men too, that shows that there isn't that side of it. And I think you've said, too, there's almost like the safety in it that I'm just gonna brush away my feelings so I can't get hurt and I've got swung so far on the other side of the pendulum. Like how do we start getting back to more of an equilibrium? I mean, I think honesty is like an important first step.

00:35:03 - 00:40:00

I just recognizing that this is happening and that we can sort of push back against this culture that we've been sort of imbibed and figure out what actually works for us. You mentioned sort of how we don't want to give up the gains of the feminist movement and the feminist moments. And I think that's really right. I think though, and this is one of the things that I explore in the book, it kind of feels like the original aims, the aims of the original feminist movement were, in some ways sort of co opted by a capitalistic and still patriarchal culture turned to something else. So, you know, like the feminist, the early feminist movement was actually really revolutionary. It had the idea of like smashing the patriarchal system, you know, one that centered male preferences and also male and toxic value systems and replacing it with the vision in which women and their actually distinctive concerns were equally valued and respected. That's a pretty specific vision of sex positivity, meaning that women are sort of seen and sort of seen as equal and valued for who they are. But then we kind of moved to this almost the current moment where we went from the feminist movement to this sort of lean in and hashtag girlboss feminism, which for less. You know, rather than actually dismantling a male dominated system. Female progress was kind of redefined. It was redefined to just look like gaining power within the existing system, which meant adopting its values. So like a boss is still the ideal empowerment is just like a girl one. Right. And Playboy was still great, as long as women could be play girls, but that isn't a quality, right? That's just sameness. That's just forcing women or ass pushing women to live by a male value system. And it almost is suggesting that women settle for the opportunity to be like almost the worst kind of man. So neither asks men to do more. Nor does it actually respect sort of women uniquely and recognize that like, hey, women and men are not necessarily the same, but that doesn't mean that one is worse than the other. I mean, that's exactly it. That's why I hate bumble so much. I hate bumbles so much because it's basically just putting it on women, opposed to making an equal footing. Like how is that empowering in any way? Well, I think part of the issue is men haven't been included in the conversation about feminism. We have not asked them to step up in any way. If I'm fucking leaning in, you better fucking lean in too. And so it's feels like with the new feminist movement, women are asked and we're actually glamorized to take on more responsibilities to have it all. Be the mom, be the wife, be the CEO, be the boss girl, be like the stripper in bed. You know, like be everything that is that the patriarch has painted for us, yet we have not asked for men to do anything at all. And I think that's why we're in this sex recession right now is women are asked to do so much and to initiate to lean in in every aspect of our lives. What have we asked men to do? Just sit there? Just kind of being confused. What do you think, Christine is going to happen with the hookup culture? Do you think that it's something that will die down or do you think it would just manifest into something a little different? Yeah. That's good question. I have hopes. But I'm not necessarily sure. I mean, I guess I'll also just tag back and reiterate kind of what you were saying. I think you're totally right. Like women were encouraged in many ways to become kind of like the works kind of men. You know, I talked to one woman who was just like, well, I modern feminism felt like I was internalizing this idea that just having tons of casual sex like a man does would subvert the double standard. Yeah. And if I learned how to fuck without feelings like then I could be free. Like men. But she actually said that she later realized that she was just imitating a sense that she had kind of already found degrading and dehumanizing. Yes. And yeah, and then it wasn't, you know, men being asked to be better or more loving or more open people. They still just face the same pressure to lean into their stereotypical rules, making it harder for them to ask for and achieve the connection that many of them actually wanted. And women were doing the same. So we're both going in the same bad direction. You're not going to meet there. One thing that I think is kind of promising maybe is that I am seeing more people pushing back. So the conversation about hookup culture has been sort of constant for the past ten years or more. But an interviewing Gen Z like Gen Z is for the book. A number of them I was surprised to hear were just like, yeah, no. No to a hookup culture. Okay. That's great. Good. Yeah. They've learned from us, the millennial generation. Yes. The people who fucked it up. They saw a struggle.

00:40:03 - 00:45:09

You know, I was like talking to this group of college students and they were telling me about their dating lives and one of them was like, yeah, you know, like my friend, she went on. She went out with this guy. And he didn't want to hook up with her. He said he wanted to get to know her better. And it was awesome. What a yeah. And she told us about that. And we were all like, wow, incredible, wow. And then another person in the group, a guy actually jumped in was like, yeah, we shouldn't have to treat that guy like a unicorn. Right. He shouldn't be applauded. This should be the norm. Yeah, that should be the norm. It should be the norm. And so many of them, and other people I talked to were like, yeah, I'm just, you know, I've tried it, and it's like, it's not for me, actually. I'm beginning to find that form of feminism kind of not that exciting. And I'm interested in doing something different, whether it's trying to date people in person and relying less on apps or trying not to define themselves as much by sort of like their sexual activity. And I think that's hopeful. I think people will probably continue to hook up. But I think there's a little bit more awareness now that there are other options that you don't just have to do that because that's what you've been sold. It's definitely hopeful to hear the younger generation is feeling that way. I think what UA and I see is a lot of people that's been there done that. Embrace the hookup culture. Realize that it's ultimately unfulfilling. This is both many and women. I think it's hopeful to me that we've seen people come out of it. And you know, if anything, what a trend we actually talked about in an episode that we did last season is that people are putting less emphasis on sexual chemistry and attraction because they're almost over correcting for all this time that we've been so focused on this. And it's all about like, what do I want in a long-term partner? What are all these qualities? And we were saying, you know, maybe that's over swinging too. I feel like we keep going this cycle of overcorrection in both ways. But I'd love your thoughts too of like, how can we acknowledge? And I think not just women, but men too, that we do want that deeper connection. Like how do we cut through all this bullshit and be open about it and not be afraid to take that risk? So, you know, in the book I talk a lot about how consent is not enough to it's not a high enough standard to define good sex, right? It can define sort of what's not literally rape or actually assault. But I think most of us want more from our sexual encounters than I did not actively rape them. Right, right? And so I suggest actually that one way that we can push towards a better culture is by trying to have a higher standard for our encounters. And I suggest the idea of willing the good of the other as a standard that we can reach for. That is, I think, more ideal than just did I get consent from the other person. And so willingly good of the other is actually Aristotle by way of Thomas Aquinas, and it was his definition of love, but not like just romantic love, but sort of love in the idea of seeing a person valuing them as kind of a human being. And it implies a couple of things for a relationship if you're trying to will the good of the other if that's your standard. Like one, you have to have some idea of what the good actually is. So what does sex actually mean to you? What do you actually want from a relationship? Like, what is the good that you're reaching for? To will the good of the other person means that you are sort of putting it upon yourself to care as much about their well-being as your own. So willing their good and that also implies then that you have to think about them and maybe even know them or get to know them to figure out what their good would be. Like what they're actually looking for, what they want because they're good is not actually the same. It's just like yours. Like if your outcome might be like, I want to get someone to have sex with me. Okay, but that may not be very good. So pushing you pushing yourself to kind of figure out not just what you want, but also what the other person wants and sort of treating them as kind of a companion in your encounter or a companion in your relationship where you're creating something together, not just someone you're trying to get something from, whether it's sex or something longer term. Seeing people is humans, you know, not commodities, which unfortunately dating apps have trained us to look at people in that way. Moving away from that vision could be really helpful. And hopeful. So is that mindset of instead of thinking, am I going to get some tonight with this person? Is thinking, how can we have the best time possible? And asking the other person what they're looking to do, that's positive for them. Yeah, I mean, I think not even just like having the best time possible, but sort of helping them in some way. Like helping them achieve sort of their good. And I think it's kind of willing the good of the other, I think, is it sounds like a sort of philosophical concept, but it's really related to how much it's like the goals and rule, right? Doing into others, something that's sort of pretty common, but also difficult in some ways.

00:45:10 - 00:50:01

But I think even just like the attempt to try and see the other person and figure out their goods, like even if you try doing that and you fail, that's still so many steps further than just like checking off the, okay, did they say yes. But let's go. I feel like, you know, I think some of it too is how do we reframe what's attractive because we're talking about men at large in asserted way. And that isn't every man. We know from our podcast. There's a lot of men that want the same thing and equal partnerships and to really put not this emphasis that has been in the past and to live by a new rules of masculinity. But we often find those are those men that get overlooked by women sometimes. Like how do we start to guess separate what society is fed us for all these years and like untangle that and kind of reimagine what we want, living by our own rules. I think everyone says that, but it's hard to actually do it. And we're so influenced by the past and what we think we should want and do. Yeah, that's a really good question. I think it takes a lot of self reflection. First of all, just actually forcing yourself to ask those questions. One of the things that I found so interesting in doing research and reporting for this book was talking to people about their sexual encounters and their relationships and their dating life, and I would ask people, you know, okay, so tell me about this thing that you did. You went on, you went on a date with this guy, or something you slept with this person, and they're like, yeah, yeah, this happened, and I'm like, okay, why? And the answer was often like, I don't know. Yeah. I felt like I should, or I guess I did it for the story. Maybe? And he'd be like, okay, that's interesting. So what do you think sex is to you? Like, what do you want from sex and often the answer was, I don't I guess I've never really thought about it. Or it would be like, oh, well, I guess actually, I do want a relationship. I want to love someone and be loved. And I'm like, okay, so is this getting you there? And they're like, I guess, not. I guess I just didn't really think about it. And so many people, I think, don't ask themselves these questions. We just sort of do the thing that the story tells us to do or do it for the story, but we don't slow down and say, what do I actually want? Right. Why am I actually doing this? Is this thing that I'm doing helping me get to where I want to go and just slowing down and asking yourself that can be so clarifying? Well, that's interesting because we focus so much on consent with the other person that maybe we should take a moment before that to get consent from ourselves first, asking the why and do you want to go through with this? Yeah. Interesting. Let's hold that thought for a few messages. This episode is brought to you by gobble, gobble delivers Gourmet, freshly prepped 15 minute meal kits right to your doorstep. Their chef designed meals are easy to prepare with simple recipes and fresh ingredients that have been chopped, portioned and simmered so that dinner is both fast and flavorful. Gobble combines the convenience of takeout with a health satisfaction and freshness of a home cooked meal. It really is a perfect solution for anyone who wants to save time cooking, but don't want to compromise on quality or health. Also, gobble feels extremely customized with every new menu, their technology learns more and more about your tastes and preferences to effortlessly deliver fresh seasonal dishes you'll love. Just like having a personal home chef. Some of my favorite dishes have been the chimichurri fish tacos with shredded cabbage and the butternut squash ravioli with spinach and pecan sage Brown butter. Now for our listeners, you can guess 6 gobble meals for just $36, just visit gobble dot com slash dateable 6 three 6 and get your first 6 gobble meals for just $36. Again, go to gobble dot com slash dateable 6 three 6. We talk about quality. And that's kind of like the gold standard. I think for a generation that maybe has seen the fallout of the past real inequalities and then the overcorrection and now we just want to get back to a place where it's more even. But you point out in your book that biology might make that fully impossible, you know, women clearly there's more at stake hetero women or anyone that is able to have a child and get pregnant, especially with all the abortion stuff that's been going on lately. It's like there's a lot of danger there for women that men just don't hold or even the biological clock. Do you think that there's ever a place that we can get to true equality or is that just kind of impossible because of biology? Yeah, great question. I mean, so in writing the book, this chapter men and women are not the same. Almost felt like one of the one of the more taboo sections to write.

00:50:02 - 00:55:00

Because exactly we have this sort of this idea that, well, we should just men and women should just be able to have sex in the same way. It's like, that's the goal, sort of this equality is the goal, but I think that sameness is not the sameness and equality or not actually equivalent. And I think that if we are thinking about how to have sort of good and ethical sex and relationships, it's important to be open and honest about how people are different and where vulnerabilities are different and exactly as you said like in when it comes to sex, often women have far more vulnerabilities than men. And also maybe want different things from encounters. I think we actually just need to get to a place where we can acknowledge that that's the case so that we can then begin to ask men to take that into account to take that power dynamic into account because that's actually what sort of respecting women would look like. That's actually sort of how you would push towards equality by seeing the whole person. Seeing women as they are and seeing men as they are in thinking about how those two can fit together, not just how we can sort of make them identical, not have to and thus not have to talk about any conflict. I think what I'm gathering from so much of this is like the way we've been defining a quality is like making it even, where it sounds like incorrectly, if you think elsewise, that's just not possible, given the way that biology stands and maybe not even what's best. How else do you think we can continue to bridge the gap and shift the thought from quality being that everything is the same to celebrating the differences? I think that in the end, the aiming for what is actually good, I guess, what we actually want. Like what we want, I think, from a relationship is not necessarily sameness, right? What we want a relationships that are fulfilling that sort of neat are different needs. And so what does that look like? Not just like, can we sort of win the race, get somewhere before man or vice versa, but actually how can we kind of collaborate in a way that serves both parties, and that can be really unique and look really different, I think. And in some ways, it almost feels like we post sexual revolution in feminist movement. We spent a lot of time on this trying to play catch up. Yeah. In a way, without actually figuring out, what are we trying to get to exactly? What is the real goal here? I remember UA and I went to south by Southwest a couple of years ago. And we somehow were in a room that became like a man bashing zone. We had an actual man apologized for being a white man. And it was just one of those things that were both like, is this really progress? I get like we want to elevate women's voices and people of color's voices. Yes, that's a given, but I feel like just hating on another group isn't necessarily giving us progress as to shifting it from what it is. Like if you find yourself, we talked about a little earlier, like being in this, I hate men mentality or the insul mentality. If you find yourself kind of in this mode, how can you kind of start to rethink that that's not actually a quality at the end of the day? I think that again, one of the things, or the place that I think that we found ourselves in after sort of during and after directly after the me too movement was, you know, we identified a lot of things that we thought were bad. And that we're going wrong with our sexual culture and that we didn't like. Which is important to sort of define where things have gone off the rails in some ways. And we need to get more clear on what is wrong, actually. So that we can correct course. But I think we also need to begin to develop a positive definition of what we want relationships and sex and sort of our sexual culture to look like to identify the sort of substantive goods that we are hoping for in our encounters with each other individually and sort of in our sexual culture at large. Talk about them openly so that we can sort of publicly promote practices that advance them and sort of discourage practices that don't. You know, identifying the positive vision, I think if we think about it, we're like, okay, probably the positive vision of our sexual culture is not just sitting around in a circle hating on you. Right. Especially if you're attracted, yeah, that's not really getting you to your goal at all. Right, like we can identify the problem, but that's only the first step the next step is to be like, okay, so where do we want to go? What exactly do we want to change? So I guess if your opinion, what do you think the next wave looks like? We talked about how, you know, we've overcorrected, re corrected. We've had to rethink what sex actually means and looks like, where do you see us all going? It's kind of hard to predict the future. Two trends that I think I'm seeing.

00:55:01 - 01:00:02

One is more skepticism of dating apps. And I know you've talked about these a lot on your podcast, but you know I talk about in the book sort of this ideal sort of privacy on dating apps and being able to sort of do whatever you want to do. I interviewed this one young woman who she was like, yeah, you know, I got on the apps I wanted to sort of prove that I could be as cashless as anyone else and honestly, I got a guy to come to my house like I ordered a man on Tinder. It was awesome. And then we were talking to you was like, wait, maybe that's not the best way of describing a person. Like a pizza. And I think that more people are sort of beginning to sort of realize and feel how app dating has made it. So much easier to kind of commoditize other people and treat relationships transactionally. And also the fact that dating via app means that you're kind of unmoored from any sort of community center because you don't know them, they don't know you, so it's a lot more acceptable to go someone or send them a dick pic or whatever because no one will find out, as opposed to if you were dating someone you met through friends or coworkers or church where there's some more responsibility to treat someone well. I feel like I'm seeing people step back from the apps a little more and be like, this is not encouraging sort of healthy dating habits. This doesn't make me happy and trying to meet people other ways. The real world maybe, or even on other outlets, whether it's like, oh, I'm just going to slide into someone's Twitter DM. Do people do that? They do. They definitely do. Or I Instagram. But I think people are looking for new ways to meet other people that are not just sort of mindlessly and numbly swiping through apps. And I don't know what form that's going to take in the long run. But I would be interested in seeing where that turns out. I don't know, have you talked to people who feel really burned out. Like every single person. I mean, I think I met my partner at an app. So I'm not totally anti apps at all. And I think there is a purpose that allows you to meet people that you wouldn't. And you know, it's one of those things that I remember before apps, everyone complaining that it was so hard to meet people out and about. So it's funny how the pendulum just shifts and I get it's all about this overcorrection that keeps happening. That being said, I think that we haven't really refined what meeting online means in a long time. We just have this swiping mentality. Is that the best way for people to meet probably not? You know, it does bring a lot of this commodity feel to it. And I feel like all these new apps keep emerging, but it's just a variation of that. We need someone to take a bigger swing. I think ultimately online is the way that our world is moving. There's almost this online world and outside world. And it can be a beautiful thing if you're able to use both to your advantage. I don't think it needs to be either or. But what we find is that people get so hung up on one side or the other, or the way it's designed is not fulfilling. So I think there needs to be some shifts over our dating apps, a good thing or a bad thing. Yeah, for sure. The other trend that I am seeing in right about in rethinking sex is kind of a reconsideration of what sex positivity means. And to the question of consent, this idea that to be sex positive to be a good sort of feminist or a good kind of modern person means to be always up for anything like never push back on someone's demands and like the ideal person is like super experimental and good giving in game all the time. Yeah. And you know, I talked to so many women who had these encounters where they were like, yeah, I went to bed with this person, he choked me. And I didn't love, I didn't love that. But I don't know, I guess I consented 'cause that's what we're doing now. Like this is actually, this was a story that a woman told me at a party and she was like asking for my advice. She was like, he chokes me. Is that okay? Like, because she didn't feel like she could say it wasn't okay because she didn't want to yuck his yum or whatever. I'm feeling some pushback towards the idea of relentless positivity in some ways. Uncritical sex positivity. And a feel from women especially that actually maybe we should have some clearer norms about what is and isn't or what should and shouldn't be expected first date and whether sexual encounters that are shaped by pornography are actually not something that we should be okay with. So how would you redefine sex positivity? Um, that's really interesting. I mean, I think that actually I would return to the original definition of sex positivity. So sex positivity is coined by the feminist journalist Ellen Willis in the 1980s, I think.

01:00:03 - 01:05:00

She actually used it in response to sort of a specific problem. The sort of radical feminist movement that suggested that women and men would always be at odds and actually women if they really were feminists shouldn't have sex with men. Interesting. You know, should be either celibate or have sex with women instead because anything else was in support of the patriarchy. Alan Willis described herself as sex positive saying that actually no, I am a woman and I enjoy sex and I think it's possible to have sex with men and that's fine. I shouldn't have to sacrifice my own pleasure and experiences to teach men a lesson. Sex is a good thing and it's, you know, something that I as a woman should be allowed to experience and people should care about my experiences. And I think that's a real definition of sex positivity, right? Just being able to not be afraid of sex as I think or demonize sex as it felt like was being done sort of prior to the sexual revolution saying this is a bad thing we shouldn't talk about it also women don't even like it. Being able to admit that it matters to us have our opinions about it and our feelings about it taken into account and sort of respecting our feelings is a positive vision of sex. You know, being honest about what it means to us and sort of caring about it. But that doesn't necessarily mean that we have to do everything that we're asked. Yeah. Or perform in a certain way. Really it means valuing our own experiences are lived experiences are actual desires, and having those respected by other people. That's a positive vision of sex that I think we can all get behind. I love that. I love that. Because it's not about deprivation, which I feel like for so many years, women felt like if I deprive them of sex, then they're going to want me more. But at the same time, you're stripping yourself of the pleasures of sex too. And it's not about demonizing sex either. It's about reestablishing what you enjoy and what you get out of sex and making it a collaborative experience versus it's all about me or it's all about them. And respecting our own agency when it comes to sex. Yes, yes. Julie and I have been to a few sex positive events and I think something I really like about the community is that it comes off non judgmental. It's really open for people to come and explore and see where their boundaries are, really. But I think from the outside of you don't come into the community, you see it, it's almost like a form of pressure. Like I should be out doing all kinds of kinky sex. I remember dating this guy. He's like, I bet you're real kinky. And I'm like, I don't know, even know what that means, but should I be? Should I be sticking things up your butt? I don't know. I think that's like the mentality now that you're either very traditional and old fashioned or you're a kinky. There's like no in between and Christine you said it exactly how I've been trying to articulate it in my head is we have to decide that for ourselves. So many times we think we should or have to. It's almost like the more free we are, the more oppressed we are by the shoulds of society that we think what is supposed to be the new way of doing things. Yeah, no, absolutely. In some ways, I think it can feel like if before the sexual revolution in feminist movements, there was pressure to not do anything, not talk about sex. Now it almost feels for many women. There's pressure to do stuff. Like you have to be out there. You have to be sort of excited and up for it all the time. But that's also pressure, right? That's not actually freedom. Right. And what we were hoping for was freedom to be ourselves and pursue what it's good for us not to just be pressured in a new direction. So finding ways to claim actual freedom will be really important. Yeah, I think this is something that we've seen with masculinity also. It's like this pressure to be alpha because that's what there's this vision that women like that, but then also this pressure to be super vulnerable and in touch with your emotions. It's a lot to put on those two parallels for people. And I think that's honestly what I'm taking away from the majority of this conversation is that all the progress has really just shifted new norms in news standards and new expectations and I think the way out of this really is to be more liberal with our own views of it. This is what I want and you know I loved the exercises that kind of thought process you were taking people through Christine of just like taking that second to think about it. Like we're just always being influenced by what's happening. In culture opposed to thinking about what is actually good for us and that is the only way out of this and to return to some equilibrium a bit more.

01:05:00 - 01:10:00

And I also love what you said about just equality is that equality doesn't mean that we're just shifting into the old norm of what someone else used to be in the old standard. It's how do we start to work together and get out of this like me versus you mentality that we talk about of this podcast all the time we call it relationship chicken that people never want to show their cards. It's pitted me against you. And I think that's what's happened with feminism and sex and masculinity and all the stuff. And how can we start to look at it more as humanity and human connection opposed to this power struggle that's up. That's kind of my big takeaways from this is we need to keep rethinking sex every day and getting really in touch with what it means. I think even just reading your book, it made me stop and be like, oh yeah, it is intimacy. It is closeness. It is connection. You think it's just something that you're supposed to do and it's part of relationships and growing up and having status or whatever it is that you're actually seeking opposed to what it can mean for you individually. Yeah, biggest takeaway is, it's not about equality. It's about humanity. And you saying that basically with new feminism, we're just succumbing to the worst sort of man. Ring so true for me. I mean, Julie and I have talked about these stories all the time. I've had guys slam doors in my face and say, equality, you can open your own door. We've also been at a bar where a guy knocked my drink off the table, and instead of buying me another drink, he said, women make as much as men now, so you can buy your own drink. And that's not equality. That's just being a douche bag. And it's not a good person. If I dropped some guys, Drake, I would expect to pay for that because I dropped their drink, not has nothing to do with gender. It's just about being a good person. So instead of thinking about the tit for tat, oh, men have this, we also need this. I think we can rise above and think, what is a good human being? And we can be that. That's how we can overcome being the worst kind of douchebag, which is unfortunately what modern dating is experiencing too. It's that lowest common denominator. The second takeaway I have is something that was when you set this. I was like, oh my gosh, so true. When you go from so many rules and oppression to all of a sudden this free world, we almost don't know where to go. And it makes sense because there's a really high number of prison inmates that once they leave prison, they actually go back because they don't know how to operate in a free world. And you know, this is kind of like the fun and exciting part of where we are today is that we are in this free world. We are creating these new rules or things or ways to think about sex and love, but this is our chance to do it, right? Instead of just like, wow, what do other people like? Maybe I'll just like what they like. And I think ultimately, and Christine, this is something that Julian and I talk about all the time. It's like, we just don't know what we want. Now maybe that's the issue. It's like we don't actually take that pause, like you were saying before having sex. It's like the pause of what is it I'm looking for? What is it that I want? And that will guide my new way of dating. It has nothing to do with feminism that has nothing to do with this new sexual freedom. It's about what I want, and I think we just need to be a little bit more in touch with what that is. And that's something I struggle with. On a daily basis is like, what is it that I'm looking for? Yeah, I think these takeaways are exactly right. I mean, this is kind of the point of rethinking sex and why it's subtitle to provocation, not because I'm trying to make people upset with this book, but to actually provoke us to just think about it. You know, like, why are we doing the things that we do? What do we want? And what would we want if we had a real choice? You know, where are we trying to go and how do we get there? Stepping back and thinking about that means that we would actually have the opportunity to create the sexual culture that we want rather than sort of just taking whatever is given to us. And this is a moment where we're having the conversation, or at least beginning to have the conversation. We've had the prompts. So how do we use the moment well? While Christine, where can people find the book rethinking sex? Yeah, rethinking sex is available ideally rubber books are sold, so Amazon, your local bookstore, bookshop dot com. And you can find me on Twitter and Instagram and at The Washington Post, but my handle is just at Christine Ember. So I'd love to hear from you guys. Thank you so much for having me on. Thanks so much for being on dateable and thank you to everyone listening to this episode. Hopefully this will instigate some conversations to be had because that's what is the starting point, right? Is having these open conversations about sex, inequality, and feminism, what it all means to us.

01:10:01 - 01:12:18

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