S15E4: The Lowest Common Denominator (in dating)

00:00:01 - 00:05:00

The dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that The Huffington Post calls one of the top ten podcasts about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about everything from sex parties to sex droughts, date fails to diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host UA Shu, former dating coach turned dating sociologist. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Kraft chick as we explore this crazy dateable world. Data bowls, if you're looking for a new episode of the day will podcast, guess what? You're in the right place. Welcome to another episode of the day for podcast. I was scared for a minute. For any of our new listeners, are you confused if you are? We did a really good job. Welcome to our show. We're back again with another awesome episode for you. We are recording this ahead of time because meet UA, I'm currently on vacation. If you're hearing this right now, hopefully I'm off the grid and not checking my emails and my phone as much, but we are recording this into the future. Yes, and if you missed last week's episode, which you should check out, by the way, if you did miss it, you a did share that her partner for their four year anniversary is planning a secret vacation that she does not know where she's going. And I'm dying to know. So I can't wait till you could report back to all of us. Do you have any predictions of where you are? Well, okay, the funny thing is by the time this airs, I hope I know where I'm going because I would be halfway through my vacation, but he did send me this image board and it had a lot of beachy vibes, looked very European, a lot of seafood, water, cruise, no, not cruise, but boats. So I'm thinking somewhere like South of France, I don't know, that's where I'm thinking or even Italy. Do you need your potato support? Has he? I do need my passport. It is an international trip. It's not New Jersey. I did confirm that. Jersey Shore, he's taking YouTube. He's like, he just using your passport to throw you off. He keeps joking with people. Whoever asked he's like, we're going to Jersey. No offense to anybody who lives in Jersey, but definitely not the dream vacation I was hoping for. Maybe for a 5 year, you know, I want to work up to Jersey. Well, very exciting. I can not wait to live vicariously through you and stalk your Instagram. Oh yeah, I'll be sending you all the photos. I'm already sending you all the photos as we are talking into the future. This episode, though. Yeah, let's be present and coming back to the present episode. We spoke to a friend of mine that I've been friends with since New York and her name is sonica. And she's been, I mean, we've been through each other's lives through all the good and the bad and the ugly of dating and now that we're both in the same city in LA, she spent catching me up on her dating life and we had this moment of like, why is dating so bad? Why is there so much bad dating behavior? And I think she cracked the code on why that is. Yeah, you know, as soon as you told me this, of like, we need to have her odd. And it's really interesting too. I was at a friend's daughter's birthday, so a lot of my friends have kids, they are totally out of the dating scene. But a few of them, they obviously know I do this podcast, and some of the folks I haven't seen in a while, they were asking just out of curiosity. One of them was a mutual friend of ours UA that used to work in a data app. And she was curious, you know who it is. She was curious of what were people's sentiments towards modern day day today. In my initial reaction was it's gotten worse. I feel like people are not as hopeful and it's really sad and disheartening. And I think you and I share the same vision of how do we start to save modern day day, and continue to go down this path where everyone is just kind of basking in the misery. And you know, I think this episode is really great because it really you could hear the frustration in sonic's voice of this that this concept of what we're calling the lowest common denominator, basically that if everyone else behaves a shitty way, that makes you do the same thing, even if that's not what you want to do. So if everyone else goes, that means that you're going to go because it becomes the culture of dating. And I think that's a really bad path to go down and we're hoping by raising awareness of this. And I think she was able to put it into a term that a lot of people are feeling. It's like, why would I rearrange my schedule if I think this person is just going to flake on me? I'm just going to cancel the last minute because I got busy. That just sets up a perpetual bad environment that none of us want, including the people that are doing it. No shit.

00:05:01 - 00:10:08

I mean, not all superheroes wear capes. Some where microphones and here we are trying to save modern dating because we truly believe we're in some sort of crisis here. If you go on social media because we'd like to use hashtags to get more views. And if you do hashtag dating sucks, it's like billions and billions of hits. But if you say better dating, we use the hashtag better dating, or how to date better. It gets like thousands of hits. That's just the difference right there, because people actually want to create more content about debt, bad deity. How many times have you met someone else? They want to talk about dating in the first thing they do is talk about how terrible it is and they want to tell you about a story because they experience really bad dating behavior. They think it's entertaining at this point, right? It's so bad. And then we just feed each other's negativity. Yeah. I mean, that was even one of the catalysts of starting this podcast in the first place. It's funny that we've kind of come full circle with making it more of a defined mission, but I remember there was this article that surfaced way back in the day of why dating in San Francisco is the worst. I've come to realize that every city has that article everywhere. But why would they be it is clickbait and people there is this misery loves company feeling and I think it's good because we don't feel like we're alone. Hopefully by the end of this episode, we've come to some ideas of how to move out of it. The first step is awareness with everything and then the next step is action. So this is the challenge for us, right? When we got sonic on the show when we were doing our interview, it was a very easy to talk about what is wrong. But then it was a very collaborative effort to figure out how do we end this and or at least how do I take more accountability for my actions so that I don't succumb to the lowest common denominator. So we hope you can join us in this journey. It's not about us telling you how to get out. It's like, we got to be in this together and we got to do this as a movement. It can't just be an individual individual action. Yeah. I mean, I do think, though, it needs to start with yourself. Like, yes, it needs to be collective because yeah, it's going to get taxing and wearing if you're the only one that's doing good dating behavior to everyone else is it absolutely. But I love this quote that, you know, to see change in the world, you need to be the first person to change. And we recognize in this episode, sonic is the first to admit that she does the same thing she completes about. And why is she doing this dating which she doesn't behave this way in normal life? So we do need to take that accountability. And I really do believe as someone, you know, that met someone on a dating app. There's a lot of people that aren't looking for the same thing as you. There's a lot of people that don't have the same level of self awareness or emotional intelligence or all the other buzzwords out there. But it's your job to realize that they're not even worth your time fixating on. Just move on to find the people that are on the same level as you. And I think in a way it might feel daunting that I know so much or I have the standard and maybe no one can meet the standard. But personally, I believe it's better to go on less states where people that are on the same wavelength as you, they continue to succumb to the lowest denominator, be with people that aren't. Yeah, 'cause when you expose yourself to that, then you think that's all that's out there. But there are plenty of people who don't want to be that who are trying to get out of that and you can be part of the movement of getting out of that. When you succumb to the bad dating behavior, that's when you're part of the problem. And this is a question we ask everyone. Whenever they want to tell us a bad dating story, they go, oh, I went on the date with this person and they did this. And then the question we asked back is have you done that before? Have you been guilty of it before? And more often than not, they're like, yeah, actually. I do that. I do that pretty often. So yeah, look to yourself first, you can so easy to complain about other people, but you can control what they do. You can only control what you do. Absolutely. Don't you wish you're on dating apps right now? Funny, a funny story is that I am on dating apps. Well, not as me as a fake profile because God, I was just helping a guy friend with some stuff and I just want to see what was out there. And so I've been swiping for him. I've been doing some messaging for him, so I am him. I'm he. It's so fun, Julie, to be on the other side, because now I'm matching with girls, right? And I'm seeing. It's the same shit, y'all. We say, ah, men always say this or women always say this. It's exact same shit. Everybody does this exact same open the openers. Everybody makes the same fucking jokes, everyone goes in the same way, they fade out in the same way. It's like so dumb. We gotta stop complaining about each other because we're doing the exact same shit to each other. Did I tell you that one night I was out with one of our mutual friends and we may have had a few drinks and she agreed to let me install hinge on my phone as her 'cause I told her that part of her problem is she chooses the wrong people.

00:10:08 - 00:15:00

So I was going through unhinge that night. Clearly didn't get too far because we were out. The next day though, she messaged me and she's like, why have I getting all these messages? From these random guys that I'm not interested in. I was like, oh, you don't remember that you let me take over your hedge. Wow. I don't want to do this. I'm like, okay, well, you know, the novelty has also worn off for me. So good giving it back to you. Damn. This was a lot more fun when I had a few drinks under my belt. Now, this is just difficult again. Damn, ah, that would be so funny. I do think I could have helped her. I think so too. Sometimes your Friends know you better than yourself. And sometimes your friends are more open minded than you. The last last guy I dated was because my Friends were drunk and Napa, they were swiping for me and they matched with this guy. And I ended up seeing this guy for a while. He was great. So there's sometimes it's just, you know what? Letting go and putting in the hands of the universe and by the universe, I mean your Friends. Your drunk Friends. The last guy that you dated too outside of that, you're like last serious relationship. It was because you opened your age filters for a dating experiment. Oh, yes. Good memory. Oh my God, yes. And he barely made the cutoff, but this army cut off anyways, right? That's a stupid arbitrary cutoff. So stupid. It's like 39 or 40. Like, what's the difference? All this stuff. Right? It's so weird. The things we think we know we want, the things we think we have control over. End of the day, it doesn't fucking matter. We're just swiping based on criteria that really doesn't make sense for life. Yeah, we got to contribute to an article with board panda, actually, that we put in our Instagram and on Facebook too, if you missed it, you can go search for it, but it was actually really interesting because it was secrets of people that worked at data gaps and then we also got included, which is what we know. And I think a big piece of it, we've said this before, it's that we dating apps, the way they are designed, make us focus on things that don't matter. The age filter, the height filter, all this stuff because that's the data they have. They don't know if this person's kind. They don't know if this person's trustworthy. They don't know, even if they're funny or a charismatic or can hold a real conversation. We don't know any of that. So the more we can stop pretending like the profile is going to tell us and really just focusing on the convo we have. And that is how you get around the lowest common denominator. Obviously, you need to be at the level that you expect yourself, but then you judge from the interaction. If someone's not responding in a timely manner or seems to never want to go on a date or text or anything, anything that's like basic consistency that's required for a relationship. Then you know, and you can move on, find someone that's operating at a higher level. If you look at the basic principles of the pickup community and I don't like talking about the pickup community in this sense, but in the technical sense, they have this thing called mirroring, where if someone mirrors your moves, it means that they are interested in you. But we can take that principle and apply it to dating behavior. If you do the behavior that you want, then if someone mirrors that behavior, it means they like you, they respect you when they're doing the things that you want. Instead of you trying to mirror other people's bad dating behavior, you be the good example and then have other people mirror you back and if they don't, you know they're not the right person. Right, we're giving dating apps just way too much. Power. We're giving everything power. Yeah. And we're the ones in control here. We don't need to look at it. Like, I'm just going to do what everyone else does or the dating apps are set up this way. So I'm going to do it that way. What do you want? What's important to you? And what standards are you going to have for how you operate in a relationship? We talked about on last week's episode, like how each relationship builds in the relationship we have with ourselves, builds to who we want to. Ultimately become in the qualities we need in a partnership, knowing that in keeping yourself accountable to that, solves a lot of these problems easily. It sure does. It sure does. You only have control over yourself. Don't give that control over to the dating apps or to the people that you haven't met yet. You control your own actions. It's like, I feel like we're just a broken record at this point. We keep saying the same things. But come on, y'all, we gotta shake you. I want this message to get through to you because if we all subscribe to this belief, then modern dating would be a whole lot better. Yes, and I think too, you know, teaser alert. We do have an episode coming up with the head of communications at OkCupid and as someone that found love on a data gap and that also knows the ins and outs.

00:15:01 - 00:20:02

We've said this before too, but no one at a data gap is out to get any of us. It really trying to make it easier to let you meet all these people that are on the same boat and at least being single from there it's up to humans and for us to do it so I think the saving modern dating comes down to our own behaviors and the behaviors of others and that's really where this whole lowest common denominator comes in. For sure. So we'll just have sonic explain what all that means. Yes. And before we get into it, you know where there's 2000 plus other people that are looking to save modern dating in our Facebook group. So nice. Go to love in the time of Corona. This is my biggest mystery in life is why all the people on there are so freaking incredible, yet feel like there's no one else good on dating apps, yet they're all on dating apps. So clearly we're just not finding each other because we know that there's good quality people that are on the apps. So it's a myth that we're not. So that's my little soap box there. Also at dateable podcast on Instagram, you can connect with us, send us your brunch talk questions through DM or hello at dateable podcast dot com. Okay, and let's get into a few messages from our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by aurelia. We are excited to pamper ourselves with some high quality lingerie. Yay. Oh my God, I could not wait to open my box. I know. Well, aurelia is a premium curated lingerie and sleepwear subscription box with 100% 5 out of 5 client ratings. Yeah, and I love that you filled out a style quiz about your sizes and preferences. And then a dedicated stylus curated two to three pieces of lingerie or sleepwear per box. How fun is it having beautiful lingerie delivered to your doorstep? And I'm loving everything in my box, so it's hard for me to choose a favorite piece. I don't know about you. Same, but I am gravitating to this lace brawn underwear set that's black that's sexy, but also comfortable. Comfort is key the set I'm wearing at night now. It's this floral cami and short set. It's very light. It's perfect for the summer and it is, oh my God, comfortable. A shipping is free for the U.S., UK and Canada, not to mention aurelia is owned by a beautiful and fabulous woman of color. For a limited time, dateable listers get 10% off their first monthly or seasonal box. Yes, just enter the code dateable ten at checkout. Go to aurelia box dot com. That's aurelia, AUR, a box dot com and enter the code dateable ten for 10% off. Now a word from our sponsor better help. Do you ever feel like you're dwelling on something? I remember I used to dwell about dates that went nowhere and wondering what happened. But now looking back on it, I wish I could have focused more on solutions to help me move forward. It can be tough to train your brain to stay in problem solving mode. But when you learn how to find your own solutions, there's no better feeling. A therapist can help you become a better problem solver, making it easier to accomplish your goals, no matter how big or small. My better health therapist helps guide me through frameworks of problem solving, which I love because I would much rather someone lead me to the answers than just tell me what to do. It has been so healing to speak with someone who genuinely cares about my well-being. And I feel like I'm in good hands with a professional. If you're thinking about giving therapy a try, better help is a great option. It's convenient, accessible, affordable, and entirely online. Just fill out a brief survey, and you'll be matched with a therapist when you want to be a better problem solver, therapy, can get you there. Visit better help dot com slash dateable today to get 10% off your first month. That's better help HELP dot com slash DAT. Okay, let's hear it from sonic about the lowest common denominator. We talk about dating and modern dating and so many people are frustrated with dating and the bad dating behavior, but there's also this notion that we are part of the problem as well. The people who are complaining about that dating behavior are also doing that said bad dating behavior. And why is that? That's what we want to dissect today with sonic like Monica. What's up girl? She is 38 years old, lives in LA. She was born in India, raised in NorCal, and then also moved to LA in New York, and that's where sonic and I met. It was in New York. She's hooking up having fun single and actively going on dates and dating someone, but haven't defined the relationship pretty much check, check, check all the all the situation ships that you could possibly think of. Thank you God for you out there. You are so modern dating right now. Not defining it. So how did this come about? I think I texted Julie that night. After going out with sonic and our other friend and I was like brilliant sonika was talking about how we succumb to the worst dating behavior possible.

00:20:02 - 00:25:02

What you call the lowest common denominator, which also it's a toxic cycle where you engage in bad dating behavior and then that just begets worse and worse dating behavior. That's what we do. And why do we do this? It's the question on all of our minds, but let's just start from that spot right there. What has been your experience with dating apps? Well, I think when we were having that conversation, I was bringing it up at a frustration, right? I was like, I know, I know I can be better. But I'm defaulting to this mode that I almost feel like I've learned. I'm a pretty self reflective person. So I'm pulling apart like YA or my behavior like this why am I actually resorting to whether it be ghosting or saying hi to somebody on the app and then just kind of like disappearing or trying to set up a coffee date, yeah sure let's do it all my life's a little busy. How about next next weekend and then just never making it happen, right? You can say that dating apps are kind of like that. You're meeting somebody for the first time. You don't have to really show up because you don't know this person there are strangers. So it's not exactly the same thing as saying, oh, and my professional care wouldn't do that. Oh, with my science and family, I wouldn't do that because you have accountability there. You already have a relationship with those people and other things there. So it's not a perfect analogy, but every other thing I do, I'm on top of every other person I speak to, I follow up with. Every other new vendor in my particular job in industry, every other new contact I get through a third party that's not really like, I could message this person have coffee with them or I couldn't. Somebody in my life was like, hey, so and so I think it would be great for you just touch base with them network with them. It would be great for them to pick your brain. Would you be open to that? I'm like, yeah, sure, let me make sure I put this in my calendar. Let me make sure I show up for this person. Let me make sure I do this stuff and I don't do it when I start. On the dating apps. I thought about it. And I was like, I do it because it happens to me. And I just kind of have fallen into this behavior. Maybe it's mob mentality, maybe it's something like, oh, well, everyone's kind of okay with this, right? The lowest common denominator. Everyone's kind of okay with this, but I remember not being like that before. When I first got on dating apps, or even prior to dating, and I'm definitely not like that in any other aspect of my life. Okay, so I want to go back to where you were when you first started dating apps when you were naive and you didn't know how they operated. What was your mentality then versus now? So I was late to the game because I was in a committed long-term relationship with somebody when dating apps really came on the scene. I was in New York and I was the person I was like that friend. He's in a relationship he's like, let me see your app. I want to swipe, so I do the window shopping for other friends, you know? I'd be like, oh, this is fun because I have, I have no skin in the game here. So this is fun for me. I'm just going to swipe on this app. But I didn't have any reference to what it actually meant to engage in any conversation past the swiping. And all the jokes are about swiping right and left. So that relationship ended and gave it a little bit of time. And I was like, okay, let's try this. I haven't really ever set up a dating app before. I've never set up a profile. I think the ones I started with. And I was bouncing around because I didn't really understand how to use some of them. So Tinder, of course, is the number one that I've been kind of started with. The gateway came through. Then bumble was next, which was a little better, especially for somebody like me, like to have some control and be a little safer in the dating app world. I think that's how it kind of positioned itself on that spectrum of dating apps. And so again, trying this out, like you said, to totally naive, but I'm just swiping. I'm like, yeah, very sorry. Cool. We matched. Hooray, you know? How's it going? What's up? I'd look at the profile. Study it. I'd come up with some really witty in like a funny something to say back to him or like some other nuanced, you know, oh, I see that you referenced this obscure movie. I also watched it too, and then I bring up a line that was even more obscure to zero, nothing, nothing came back. And I started explaining it to some of my friends. I'm like, I don't know, I think this is really funny, one liner that I came up with or whatever it is to attract some attention. And I started getting people responding to me saying you are trying too hard or you are being too funny or you are too, you're too you're coming at it. He has nothing to say back to you. You're being too connecting too much. Too much. But you're doing it too well, right? But I was coming at it again, as I said earlier on the same kind of lines of everything else that I meet. You meet somebody through an acquaintance or somebody is like you are introduces me to somebody at a party. Like, oh, something. You might like so and so. They do dinner and then walks away and leaves us to have a conversation. I'm going to be engaging. I'm going to have follow-up questions. I'm going to ask you about stuff. So I was using the same tactics in these dating apps and I was not getting any responses at all, or the responses were kind of like, well, what are you doing now? And I'm like, well, right now, I don't know what about that witty line, I just sent you.

00:25:07 - 00:30:02

So nothing was really happening in that end, and I was told I needed to dumb it down. That was the big takeaway. That went down sonic, but you need to dumb it down. You're making it work too much, almost. Like you're putting in the effort too much. So then I started with that. And then over the next few, whatever it was, like weeks, months, however, I was going on a date here, maybe not, and maybe connecting and then it started to fall through, but I was in New York as well, so taking consideration, I think you guys talked about this on your podcast, different cities, and the way people date in different cities. And in New York, everyone's kind of like, hey, I'm at work. I've got a really busy day and I can make happy hour on Thursday and this neighborhood at 6 30. We can meet at this bar. And this corner, because it's on my team to whatever. Yeah. Which is totally cool. Not a problem I was down for that. That's great. Fit in with my lifestyle too. And then, you know, I think somebody was like, hey, something happened at work. I have to like, I have a meeting that I have to prep for tomorrow. I can't. I have to stay late. And I totally understood it. Same thing happened to me too. So I was like, don't worry about it. No problem, and then that just kind of fizzled out. Okay, nothing personal, nothing happened. There's no big deal, but then I started using that tactic too. So I was like, fried from work, or I have to stay late or I'm going to be running to get to the state. And I don't know, oh yeah, tomorrow I do have to get up to do that presentation. Let me just use my perpetual cycle. Something came up with work. I just have to do this. I wanted me to maybe another date and other person on the other side totally cool. I get it. It happens to me too, right? And then I just they probably do it to someone else, right? And I just never want to date. Because then it turns into you the longer you're on apps and you go through ebb and flows of being really bitter and then being hopeful and being better and being helpful and the pendulum continues to swing back and forth. But then I started just doing the ghosting thing. Then I started just like connecting chats, sit on their 30 minutes and hour of texting back and forth on the app one night when you match this and that was talked about everything, hey, do you want to get a drink sometime? Like, yeah, sure. Let me check my schedule and then never wrote back that person again. But I would do that. And they would do that. And now we're just doing this dance and it's a continuous kind of like almost, you know, I don't know, you guys have done more research on which days are the days that people get on the apps. I think it's a Sunday Sunday. And so then everyone's on and everybody's making these little noncommittal commitments. Right. They forgotten about all of them, basically. But I was leaning on that non commitment as well. And I was like, okay, let me just make a connection so I can deal with connection to somebody and then I don't actually want to come through on it. I don't have to be accountable. Because in this world, there is no accountability. The question for me ended up being like, how do I bridge the gap between my real life, my real self, the actual person I am, to the people around me, who is accountable, and then trying to actually, I'm on a dating app, because I'm trying to find somebody to be with, guys. How do I show that same part of myself? But I'm still leaning on this behavior of being unaccountable or getting away with stuff. How do you build a relationship on something? Right. Well, it's a relationship. And it's hard though because it's hard to make it a priority when you feel like no one else is making it a priority. And if you just feel like I think about it as a work example, if the culture of the company is to do the bare minimums, why would you start exceeding that? If you're not going to get rewarded for that and people are just like, why are you doing that? Why would you do it? It doesn't make any sense. But at the same time, that's probably a company's worst nightmare to have a bunch of people that don't give a shit, right? Yeah, and it's interesting because it's a stalemate. Nothing happens, but for some reason we hang on to that initial match, the initial connection, the initial conversation, gets you a little riled up, only to set you up for disappointment. And we do this to ourselves. We do this to other people, you know, my favorite quote is we're all each other's consequences. This is exactly that. It's the prime example of being each other's consequences. Let's get back to your story because I feel like the story is very telling of where you are today. Right. Now, I guess so, yeah, maybe it's full circle, maybe it's half circle. I don't know, really quite sure. Well, you guys can decide. But I'm telling this story a little bit. As we first started this conversation, UA and I went to dinner, it was the first time I'm kind of like coming up with this. What does this mean? This is common denominator. I'm doing it. What does it really mean for modern dating and UA, of course, is the person who I want to have this conversation with because she is the expert in this. So I'm just having my own little moment of self reflection on my dating world. And what I'm doing and how I'm doing it. And I started having this conversation with a couple other friends over the course of a couple weeks.

00:30:03 - 00:35:01

It jogs my memory to something I was like, oh, you know, it's weird because I remember having a situation where a bizarre kind of ghosting experience happened and at that time, everybody around me thought it was really strange behavior. But now we're all of a sudden in a place that it's totally normalized. And the normalization of it makes it really challenging to like ask the question why we do it because it's just the way it is, right? It's just the way it is. So the story is years ago, this is pre all dating apps. Ten years ago, class maybe. I'm an early 20s. I'm not looking for a committed married. I'm in New York. I'm in design school. I'm newly in this city, and I'm exploring it. But I ended up meeting in the sky. And we just kind of fall into a relationship and it kind of happens relatively quickly into space and time. If he finally, we met, he didn't live in New York. He ended up moving to New York within a couple months, and we had kept in touch, and so by the time he moved to New York, then we just kind of like wore together because we had been in touch, but we had never really set it up like when you get here we're going to be in an inspiration too. It just ended up that way, but it was a committed, totally official boyfriend girlfriend relationship. And we had a great time. New York went to all of the Brooklyn rooftop parties during the summer. Perfect just non consequential relationship. But it was everything that we both wanted. We get closer to about the one year mark, I would say, of a scene together. At this point, like I've done his mother, we've done christmases and not with family, but with each other, christmases and birthdays and things like that. So at some point, like his behavior starts to change a little bit, we have our own issues that were kind of getting through and then at one day I never hear from him. And that was it. He doesn't respond to my text messages. We've been in conversation obviously every single day for a year. Like we text each other all the time. We're boyfriends. And that's it. And that's it. He doesn't respond to Texas. And hello. Are you okay? What's going on? Concerned. Someone's dead or something. Of course, I have some mutual connections, but not really. And so I was like, well, I'll just stop by his place. Bring your doorbell as Windsor at the end. Like, hey what's up? What's going on? Bring your doorbells, you know, it's on the buzzer. I'm like, hey, you know, here. And I was like, oh, no, he's not. He is okay. He's up there and you're discovering. Wow. So it just kind of went on like that and it ended in a way that was just so strange and so bizarre. The he didn't really break up with me for whatever reason. I can look back at it now and I can understand like we were young or he didn't have the capacity to. He didn't have the words, whatever it is. That's what happens. But I remember specifically when I was obviously heartbroken, obviously very distraught is a traumatic experience all of that. And I was telling the story of each other friends because friends would be like, hey, how's your boyfriend? He's not my boyfriend. I don't know. Don't know what happened to him. I'm not sure. It ghosting wasn't even a word I used. I just said, I just don't know. He's just not responding to me anymore. And every single person I spoke to, whether it was a girlfriend or a guy friend or friends who were a couple, you know, every single person like that is the most bizarre behavior I've ever heard. How could somebody just know? Everybody knew that you were together. So now, honestly, I really hadn't thought about that relationship in a long time because it was such a long time ago. But I was like, oh, that said, that was like crazy. And now every day, it's like, oh, another ghost. I mean, I think a big piece of it is the normalization. I mean, there was a few things that are standing out. I love your thoughts on this sonic. It's like the normalization of all these terms gives it a word. You said that yourself before there wasn't a word. The anonymity of the Internet, I think, is a big piece of it, too, that makes it just easy to do this type of thing. What else do you think is part of the reason why this is the norm now? I mean, I think there's a little difference. I would still argue that maybe a year in that's pretty shocking. Today, but I see what your point of ghosting as a whole and someone just disappearing in the midst of the courtship or budding romance isn't news anymore. People wouldn't bat an eye at this point. Why do you think from your experiences with the lowest common denominator that this happens more in today's world? I think that you have been able to have, I think it is that we're inundated with such a high level. Of quantity or choice because of the digitization of dating. And that ability to set your 5 miles or a 105 miles like how many people do you want to cast your net out to, right? And so that along with just not, you know, I think we live in a society that's very disposable in a lot of different ways. I think we live our lives that way.

00:35:01 - 00:40:01

And I also think that count the hiring number of options makes it extremely difficult to make a decision. So if you had to choose between three different dishes to eat, you'd make a choice pretty quickly like I know I want this. You had 17 different dishes to be a little bit harder to be like, well, I'm kind of in the mood for a lot of different stuff. So where do you draw that line as far as what you want in your life and then how you're going to show up to it. So that's the conversation. That's kind of the question that I was asking myself. How am I choosing to show up to this now? This is the way it is. This is modern dating. Yes, the nets are cast. However, why did they are? You know, however many people you're catching, what is it that I want to do here? And how do I want to experience this? And what's the intention that I have in this? Because obviously, I don't align to ghosting. I don't, that's not how I am in my real world. The kind of partner I want to be to somebody, who I potentially could be in this way. Well, you also brought us something else that's very interesting is that when we put a name to it, it's harder for us to ask why it's happening or even to call out someone for it happening because someone's answer is just that's the way it is. That's way modern dating is. And we created this culture where we see that as the norm of everyday dating behavior, kind of like, you come to the U.S., you throw up your middle finger, that's a fuck you. Oh, okay, that's part of culture. That ghosting is now that middle finger, like, oh, that's just what you do. Nobody questions why you do it. So where are you now? Now that you've got, you're at a crossroads. Do I want to show up as my most authentic self in dating? What are your latest takeaways? Yeah, I mean, it's a day to day thing, right? Because it's a decision you have to make every single day. And so that's challenging. I think that it's hard because and I feel like you spoke about this on the podcast before when you're the only feel like the only person is very lonely place to be in when you're holding yourself to a standard that the community doesn't hold itself to. And that's what's frustrating even in getting advice about dating and discussing type situations, whatever it is, the constant feedback is so will you dodged a bullet. Oh, well, if after a week, if you didn't get back to you, if after a month, he didn't get back to you if after three months, it doesn't it's not just he or she think, right? Like I'm gendering it because of my perspective. But whoever that person is, after 6 months, all of a sudden it just ended. We were like working towards, I thought we had a relationship where whatever it is, it stops. That is still, oh well, you dodged A-okay, just like get back on the horse. Get back out there. And I don't think that makes sense for the way we exist as humans. I think that you need time to express and have these emotions and it's totally okay to be upset about stuff like that. And it's totally okay to say, like, that's not okay. Ghosting is not okay. You have to have some accountability and you have to be able to speak to it. So as hard as it is, you try and have this hard conversation to try and say like, hey, this is how I'm feeling. This is where I'm at. But even those get really nuanced, right? To what degree do you call somebody up? Do you text them? Do you like, yeah, let's go for coffee and I'm going to break up with you. Have you done any of those? You had those comments. No, I mean, in a bizarre way, I was thinking about this earlier today. I don't know if it's just because it's summertime, and everyone's out. It's a little bit different now, but I almost lean towards now and it might be a product of just being on dating apps for as long as all of us have on and off. Just going with the flow, rolling with it. Not necessarily having to have really hard conversations until it gets to a place where the feeling is more than it is, which makes the courtship thing feel very free, but also a little bit like nondescript like anything can be porting and we can go on a date and then we can also just never see each other again. And I have to be kind of okay with that all the time. Like I just have to be okay with never really connecting or never really holding on to a connection. And that's really bizarre to me. Yeah. I was gonna say, I feel like this is where I'm like my mind is wracked with this whole thing. I'll take the example with your Friends. In some regards, they're right in a lot of regards they're wrong, I think. I see why they said to you what you're doing because we hear this a lot for people in our community and listeners that it's like, I can't even imagine if you spent like an hour crafting a perfect response or even ten minutes, whatever it is, and then that person never replies to you. That's so discouraging. It's just not a good use of your time. In the reality is with dating apps, you don't know where people are. There's people on dating apps that may be so far into seeing someone that has zero to do with you. They're just not even checking their dating apps, right? So there's so many nuances there, so I see what they were saying of like, you're trying too hard.

00:40:02 - 00:45:08

You're doing that stuff. But then on the other side, I think you're being too much and you need a dumb yourself down is not a good message. That should not be how we're approaching dating just to like you're saying succumbing to the lowest common denominator. In a way, in an ideal world, I'd love to see if we could talk of how we could get here. Like I feel like if you are being authentic in yourself and doing the stuff that makes you the wonderful person you are at all parts of life, that should let you rise to the top and filter out these people that aren't doing this. What are your thoughts of like, how can we use it maybe as a positive opposed to just saying like, I'm not going to do the too much. Yeah. I think that it actually has a lot to do with the reflection that you have in yourself and what you bring to dating in the intentions that you bring to dating. And there's a lot of work that each individual would have to do in what it is you're really looking for. Because you have to go into every one of those experiences open minded, right? That's the other thing that a lot of people say, like, be open minded, maybe it could be given a shot, whatever. But at some point, you have to be able to call it. You have to be able to say, this isn't the behavior that I'm looking for. This is the response time. Whatever it is. And communicate that effectively. But you have to know that for yourself. And I think sometimes people don't know that because they get upset about certain things or they get upset like someone has responder hasn't responded or not in the right way, or we met up and then nothing happened. And he was like, well, where is your line drawn? What is it that you're looking for in your dating life in your dating experience? And then based on that, you can start to suss out, yes or no, because again, there's just everybody's out there every single person. So we think of dating apps if they've really replaced like that going out to a bar and then having somebody walk up to you at a one liner or whatever it is, which is how I met the X that I told you the story about. I saw him involved. I went up to him. I was like, hi, this is my name sonic. What's your name? That's how we met. If you consider, oh, we're all in this digital bar. If we go into the metaverse of dating, we're all in this digital bar. It's so scary. Just all these floating faces are just like throwing one liners at you. You have to have, but that kind of is what it is. Right. So you have to just be ready for it. And then say, no, yes, no. I guess I'm sure. But the line that you draw, you being whoever the person who's dating is, right? I'm okay with this behavior. I'm not okay with that behavior. And then you kind of have to sus it out from there. But it's all work. It is. I think discernment is the biggest skill that you need and dating. This day and age. There is so much emphasis of being chosen or having someone respond to you or putting it on them, but it really is like us driving it and, you know, on one side, I do think some of this is a byproduct of data apps absolutely. I'm not disagreeing on that, but then on the other side, are we holding dating apps to a higher standard than real life? When you think about that bar situation, there's probably people that come up to you that you don't want to talk to. I remember being guilty of this. Guys would come up and I would just be like, I don't want to talk to you right now, you know? How is it really that different? Whatever reason we do hold it to a different standard. Yeah, because it's called dating apps. Yeah. And they're not called dating bars, you know? And that's a problem. I feel like it's because the emphasis on dating so much. Yeah, you don't have that perspective or mindset or focus when you walk into a bar sure be nice to meet someone, but that's not the only reason why you're at a bar, but the only reason you're on a dating app is for dating. They're absolutely no other reasons why you should be on there unless you're a board married person that's working. The worst reason. I think it's just like, yes, we can't blame the dating apps, but we also as humans haven't really adapted to what dating apps are doing. Because I always kind of think about my time using dating apps. You swipe on so many people that you almost need around two. You do this when you apply for jobs, right? You have a preliminary round, then you have around two, third round, then your final round. I feel like from the matches, then you get a second round that you match again with. So it's more intentional. And the third round is like, do you want to have a conversation with this person? Takes you through a couple different steps. I think we just can't work from zero to 60 like that, where you just look at someone's profile and all of a sudden, boom, you're in a conversation with them. That is so wild. I think that we are putting so much pressure and expectations on these dating apps. And for use sonic, have you gained more clarity on what that is that you're looking for? Yes and no, it's challenging because, you know, that's the goal, obviously, is to gain that clarity. But you have to be open and responsive to just kind of like how the other people on the apps are doing what place they're in. And so I think you guys have talked about this before, like it changes, but seasons, right? There's summertime in this cutting season and then there's things and people are a little bit more interested in connecting or just like meeting people and just meeting people right now or they're these events or things to go out and do.

00:45:09 - 00:50:03

So I guess if I had to answer your question personally, it's really just registering with energy as it's coming back. And then finding the place that feels right. So if that means, yeah, of course I'm looking for a relationship or looking to have a meaningful connection with somebody. But I'm also fully aware that dating apps are just these big pools of people that you have to wade through. And so you can't walk into reading some of these profound being like, yes, you're exactly what I'm looking for. Let's do this. You have to be a little bit open to that person. Oh, I'm kind of in this place in my life. So it's not a great answer. I feel like I've also the answer I'm giving you is something that I have learned from modern dating, which is just like don't answer it, right? Being totally vague about it. I'm totally vague about dating because I'm totally thinking about what it is that I want because that's kind of what dating is right now. It's a very vague space to be in. Well, you know, there's so many conflicting messages because I hear you of like we're told to be open, but also know what we want. There's a lot of those messages happening. And I do think there is a balance with everything as in life, right? It's like we can't just be so open that we have no Norse star at all either, because then it just leads to what you're talking about. You know, I think the way you brought up this point of human behavior hasn't caught up to the way dating apps were designed. And I think there's also a major flaw out there that dating apps fundamentally haven't been redesigned in years. Which equated at this point. Which is really messed up when you think about it. You would think someone would have had some idea to make it not this swipe. One second got instinct on it. For me, personally, I did meet my partner on a dating app. I've met other partners on dating apps. And I really do believe they can be a good way to meet people you wouldn't normally come into contact with. But I do think that we can not be filtering off of like you were saying, we can't make this judgment based off their profile. It gets so attached to who they are at that stage. Like, we have no idea why what brought them to this dating app. So I feel like it needs to be more on the conversation in the action what they're actually doing, that discernment again, of like, are they in line with my values? For you, it's like, I hate that you've been discouraged to bring your full self. Like, that actually fundamentally bothers me to be honest. I agree. If I was you. I would go be like, fuck it, I'm gonna bring my full self. You know, if I'm the type of person that makes plans, like in super proactive, it makes plans. I want someone else that does that too. And if I don't see that from that person, then I'm going to move on to someone that does. So instead of being like, I'm just going to fall to what these other people do. How can you use your gifts almost as like a filtering mechanism? Right, exactly. And I think that's what I mean when I say starting to date with intention, kind of having that. It's almost, it's kind of a subconscious feeling. If you match with somebody on dating app and you start to have this conversation whenever it is and it feels like it's really organic. The most successful experiences I've had is, and I'm usually the one to be like, yeah, I get a lot of questions about my name sonic. So many you need a line. Somebody needs lines like ask a question. Yeah, throw them a line. And so I'm like, oh, well, I'll tell you the story about how I got my name and what it means or whatever it is that over a drink sometimes. And so I just throw it out there immediately. And it might also come from doing the dating app thing in New York initially because in New York, it's just like, hey, are we meeting? Are we not meeting? That's just kind of the conversation right now. That's the way we have to we have to move forward with this. And so if that falls through or that person doesn't kick up on that and say, yeah, let's move this into real life or something like that or yeah, let's connect in some other way. Then you have to let it go. You have to kind of say, okay, that's just one of the 90% that's going to fall to the side. Maybe there's a 10% chance of something that's actually going to come of this. But it took a long time to learn how to use dating apps. It took a long time to reset expectations in that way. And to say, okay, you have to be prepared for someone to not show up. That's okay. It's not about you personally. Let's hold that thought for a few messages. This episode is brought to you by topic dot com. Do you know what's a good way to escape the challenges of dating? How about indulging yourself in some true crime stories? We're excited to introduce topic. 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And with drizzly, the number one app for alcohol delivery, you can find the biggest selection of black owned and women owned beer, wine, and spirits brands. Then get them delivered in under 60 minutes. Now you can sit with purpose and explore brands that are shifting in industry while amplifying voices often left unheard. Find your new favorite drinks while supporting the diverse stories that make them great. Show your support and raise a glass to the spirit of representation and belonging. All while discovering incredible drinks with stories worth celebrating. Just download the drizzly app or go to drizzly dot com that's DRI dot com to start sipping with purpose. Have you ever thought about how much better dating would be if you had a whole army of people supporting you along the way. We know that dating can be frustrating and lonely, but it can also feel fulfilling and fun. Have you recently decided you want to make some changes to your love life? Maybe you've recently reentered the dating scene. Maybe you've gone on one too many dates that went nowhere, or maybe you're just ready to take your current relationship to the next level. That is exactly why we created the sounding board, a true extension of our podcast that delivers a personalized experience, which includes monthly office hours where you can drop in and chat with us about anything. Weekly sound offs with guided discussions and regular virtual happy hours, allow Julie and I to become your dating sherpas to provide real-time guidance and wisdom in a more intimate way so we can all navigate dating and relationships together. Join the sounding board today by going to dateable podcast dot com slash sounding board. Again, that's dateable podcasts dot com slash sounding board. The song and dance here that I hear is you want to you want to be authentic, but you also don't want to get your hopes up. And if you put in too much effort, you can get your hopes up, which ultimately sets you up for disappointment. 90% of the time. That's just kind of that would be it. I don't have proof for the staff, but I think a lot of people will resonate with that, right? I think that is kind of the song and dance that we're all doing, but only feed off of each other's energy than it becomes stalemate because then you just keep doing less. We always give that example Julie and I joke about this. It's like, if you wait, an hour to text him back. Three hours. And I waited 6 months to text this person back. Just to show I have the upper hand and at the end of the day is like, do you want to be in a relationship with someone who texts you back 6 months later? No, you don't. So I think what it's nice is, in my experience, I've had people to ask me to meet them where they are. And what I mean by this is I remember this one time. I was supposed to meet up with this guy for a first date and I had one of those days at work where I used that excuse. You know, just a really long day at work. I'm a little tired. I think we should reschedule. And he said, that's fine. I totally understand, but just so you know, I made the effort this time. So if you truly want to see me, you will make the effort to ask me out. That put me in my place because I was like, oh damn, I can't just say, let's reschedule for next Saturday and maybe it happens. Now I have to be really accountable. Probably made you respect him or also. It seems like my time is valuable. But that's why I think we need to I think of an example of a football team, right? If there's like a really bad player, they're just like everyone else dumb yourself down and be this bad player. That's not going to be the way they tea. It's like we almost need to let the bottom feeders rise up. So I love what you're saying you ate of that guy kind of putting you in your place. How can we do that in dating, understanding? I think there's two sides of this. This is probably like the extreme contradiction, but it's like on one side. We do need to remember that we don't know these people super well. So maybe immediately asking them out is too much. Maybe it's easing in of having it be more collaborative of like, what can we do to keep this momentum going? Maybe it's, you know, we do a video first, or we do a phone, whatever that may be. But then also like if they're not willing to do that, and they just want to chat endlessly. It's like, hey, you know, I'm on dating apps to meet people, eventually.

00:55:04 - 01:00:00

I understand if you need a little time to warm into it, but if that's not going to happen, then this probably isn't the right fit. And then you move on, but you do it with dignity. You're not just ghosting. I think that's the only way out is if we ourselves, like each person at a time goes in, being authentic and showing that integrity of who we are in the rest of our lives. Yeah, exactly. I think that's tough to do, right? Because it takes a lot of not just ownership, but you are putting yourself. That is the putting yourself out there where you're kind of saying like here I'm being vulnerable and going to show you this part. I'm going to say this because this is the apparatus that we have to work in. You know, I would love, of course. There are other ways to find people to date or to meet people or you should have whatever opportunities to do all of that. It's not just eating apps. You can't just sit in your house all day long and swipe it up. Something comes of it. But this digital form of swiping is then trying to connect with somebody puts you in a position where you do have to like you were saying you open yourself up for something but you're not really sure where you're going to get what you're going to get from it and then sit back and forth that happens because the vulnerabilities really challenging there. But there is an empathy, I think, Julie, maybe that's what you're speaking to. An empathy and compassion is saying like, okay, look, here's where I stand. Here's where you are. If you can show upgrade, if you can't, then that's also okay, but I need to move on. And it takes a lot for someone to be there to say that. Yeah. We can't take data apps personally. And again, I don't want to say that to say that this behavior is okay. But the only person we can control is ourselves. And we have no idea where any of these people are coming from. I know I've been guilty of bad dating behavior when I've gone on apps after a breakup when I truly should not have been back on the app, right? So it's like, I do try to cut people a little bit of black sometimes because it's like, you have no idea what's going on in their life and where they are in their stage. But I think the more we stay true to our own values, like while yet in theory, you're putting yourself up out for disappointment. But if we can balance that with recognizing, okay, I've had a 5 minute conversation with this person. This doesn't define my worth in any way. It doesn't mean anything, essentially. It's just a fact that this person isn't meeting me where I'm at. That's all it is, right? Yeah. It's a problem when we don't see the person on these other side of the screen as a person. We see them as text. We see them as their 2D photos, that empathy is harder to nourish because you're like, well, that's not a real person until I meet them in real life. And I also think with online dating, so many of us filter by commonalities, what do we have in common? Oh, they like to see music as me. And this book I've been reading, I told Julie that I really love, it's called the scream less marriage and this marriage counselor, he says, a good relationship is not built on commonalities, a good relationship is built on integrity. What's on the inside? Yes. And I wish that we can have a little bit more of that in online dating that we can expose our integrity expose our core values pretty early on as opposed to what kind of music do you like what kind of food do you eat? You know the thing is though, okay, so saga, you're clearly dateable because you've been listening for a while. And the ins it out. So we're doing this cavo. But again, this goes back to empathy as maybe some of these people are just succumbing to the lowest college denominator. You are guilty of doing, right? So maybe we can go into it of, I don't know where they're coming from. Maybe they do have this integrity, but they're trying to hold their cards or they're trying to play the game or whatever it is. But I guess what I'm trying to say is I think we sometimes maybe need to take a little more control in dating apps if we've been enlightened. We need to be the ones that say, okay, I'm not going to text for two weeks nonstop with this person that this is a giant waste of time if they're never going to meet up with me. I'm going to throw out that I'd love to talk on the phone or meet up. And if they don't meet me, then I know. But instead of waiting for them to be a mind reader and make those moves, I think so often and this is tied to gender roles forever is women especially are afraid to do any of that stuff in person personally. I think I heard this from apps like people were like, oh, you are definitely a more forward and moving the stuff around than other people I talked to. And I think that is really important because we can't wait for other people to learn this gospel, right? And it's funny that we're saying this as sonic, because as someone who's known sonica for so long. She's like the ultimate girl boss, you know? She's like the ultimate I will go talk to this guy. I will get the job. I will do this. I will get the things I want. You've been so brave in your life in every aspect that it just boggles my mind that we are stating these things that are so core to who you are, just not in dating.

01:00:00 - 01:05:07

That's a wild to me. But that's what shows that anyone can follow to this, right? It's like the perfect example right there. That's exactly what my frustration is because it's the application of the way that we're dating now. It's the way that modern dating is in that you have to use these apps in these apps don't fulfill the same level of what I bring to every other part of my life. I can not force any of these people on these apps to rise to that level. I can only hold myself to whatever it is. And at the end of the day, because I'm doing all this stuff that you're saying, I'm on this app and somebody's giving me 10%. I'm like, okay, I'll give you 9. You know, I don't have to ask like I can't come at it with a 100% all the time every single day and consistently have this just it's frustrating as a person who is proactive in every other part of their life to have to have only this tool which is in my opinion inefficient. So I would argue though you can make it efficient. You're saying it's inefficient tool. I would argue why even talk to the person that's only giving you 10%. Why even give them 9%? Just give them 0% if they're giving you 10%. I think that's the only way out of it. Not to diminish the frustrations of apps because I know a lot of people share this, but it is what we make it at the end of the day. And some of this not to say to justify bad behavior, but this is the world we're in and if the option is we just don't do it, which, you know, if that feels right to you, then that's definitely an option, but it also feels like we can decide how we use it. I know personally for me, I was not spending a lot of time swiping when I met my current partner. And even my partner before that, I was really using it minimally only with people that were meeting me where I was. So I think a lot of it's how do we interact with the apps also and like we've said we're the only ones that we can control. That's the big takeaway, I suppose. So do you find yourself using apps differently these days? I kind of decided to use them as auxiliary. They aren't the primary, right? And I think that we've been conditioned to believe that apps are the primary way to meet somebody, but maybe maybe because COVID caused us to stay in and now there's an opportunity to go out. I think that I'm feeling energy differently. I think the people on apps are like, yeah, sure, let's connect here, but what are you doing outside your house? Where are you going to do something? And people are, it feels a little bit more open to just be in a space and make a connection to somebody. Also, I was just traveling recently. And so of course, jumping back into traveling and I was traveling solo for some time. It causes you to be obviously vulnerable a little bit out there. But you recognize how quickly if you just go to a bar by yourself, somebody there is going to connect because you are open in there and you're just kind of having a drink and chilling and hanging out and nothing has to be anything. But I was able to make really cool connections with people while I was traveling alone recently. And they're great memories. I don't have to date these people. We don't have to connect and be Friends forever, but it was a cool moment in time. And if you can bring that back into your life. So the dating app itself is just an auxiliary another component of your dating world and you're doing other things than I feel like that's going to open hopefully open my experience up to other opportunities. I think you can bring that mindset though to dating apps also. We've talked about this before. It's like, what if you just look at it like, would I invite this person to a house party, you know? I'm going to just talk to them like I met them at a house party. I don't need to decide if I'm going to date this person, I don't need to decide if I'm going to marry this person. I just want to decide if this person looks interesting enough to chat with. And then from the convo, I see if there's more. Similar to that. So I think the biggest takeaway I have in general with this conversation. I mean, I think we are all byproducts of our culture and we all feed into the culture, but it's also to make change. We need to be the change. And that can be really difficult, especially when you feel like what's the point if everyone else is going to be doing something differently. But we all control the karma, the narrative, and what we want in our dating lives. And in today's world more than ever, you know, there's no right way to date anymore. If people want all sorts of things, we do need to kind of get intentional of what we're looking for and stay true to that. In this whole notion of our date self versus our real self. I definitely have been guilty of that too. I remember when I was doing the serial dating thing, my friend was like, I'm just so baffled that nothing sticks with you because you're so friendly and easy to talk to. And I think I was bringing a different version of me and for whatever reason in dating, we feel like we need to show up differently. But I actually think the key is to bring yourself and who you are is ultimately, if you do meet someone of a relationship with, that's what's going to keep a sustainable long-term relationship, not being this fake version of yourself.

01:05:07 - 01:10:00

So I think that you can do that on data gaps and use that as an opportunity to have less is more and really filter down the people that are matching your energy, not have similar interests or all the stuff that we judge compatibility on today. Yeah. It's huge to think about, this is in our power and for some reason we kind of talk about dating apps like it's out of our control. It's this monster that was created and now we're part of the system and actually know we created the monster ourselves so therefore we can kill the monster too. And like you said, Julie, if we can be the agent of change because we are part of the problem. So if we can identify we're part of the problem, we can be that change, that it's needed. I remember this time when I was seeing this guy loosely seeing this guy that I really, really liked. I was so smitten with him, and he hadn't texted me in like three or four days, and when he finally did, I wrote back with a one word answer. I think he says I'm like, how is your week been? And I said, fine. And didn't hear him from him again. And I remember just thinking, looking at myself in the mirror, I was like, who have I become? Right. This dating zombie. Like, this guy, I really, really liked. I waited three fucking days for him to text me when I last time I checked my fingers are working. I could have texted him myself. And when he finally does text me, I reply with fine. What is wrong with me? So maybe we should just all look in the mirror and ask, is this a person I want to be? Who have I become as a byproduct of dating? It's definitely easy to blame dating apps easy to blame your city. And it is harder work to actually get clear of what you're looking for. You know, almost have the confidence to be like I'm only going to pursue things that match what I'm looking for and it's easier to wait passively way to be chosen. We need to have that response or whatever. But ultimately we need to move in the direction that's going to serve us the best. And I think especially as women, we often feel selfish doing that a lot of times, but we have to be our own agent, essentially, an agent for change, which will help everyone, hopefully. Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think that I think that unfortunately, in your right, you can't blame the dating app. So you have to show up to whatever it is. You have to control it. You have to be your agent or change. But that still means you got to walk through them up, you know? You're in it. You got to get through it. You got to go through it to get through it, I guess. Yeah. That optimism, it can be really difficult when things are not going your way. But just being like, this is all part of the process. This is just getting me to where I need to go and really believing that. I had a medium that we had on our podcast that was said. And I think this really helps this day of, you know, you're going to go through a really rocky time, but at the end they'll meet your person. And that kept me going. And you know, people can believe in mediums, not believing that maybe you don't have that, but you need something that keeps you going. And we can't let these people along the way discourage us and make us feel less than and damn ourselves down. I think anything that removes our authentic self is not a long-term strategic approach to data. Yeah, absolutely. It's a learning curve as well. Learning how to date on these apps and learning how to explore at what point do you show up in all of those facets of who you actually are. Right. Well, don't give in to the bad dating behavior. We can rise up. And if you're thinking that way, there's bound to be other people thinking that way. And if we can all just be accountable for rising up ourselves, then you're going to find the people who are rising up with you. I think the most dangerous part is if we say, well, this is how dating works. I think next time you hear a friend say that, tell them no, that's not how dating works. Maybe it is how it works right now, but it's not going to work like that in the future. So we can change that now. And then we can finally see there is optimism in all of this. There is hope because there are plenty of other people who are just as frustrated as you who want this behavior to change and we just have to change it. In ourselves first, this remains the greatest mystery to me because in our Facebook group, right? It's like I see the people in there that are all complaining about the exact same thing and having the same frustrations. There's no good people out there. Yeah. Then obviously all of them are on there. So there are great people out there. So I'm just like, why can't these people find each other? It's so baffling to me. But maybe, yeah, maybe people are not showing their real self all the data gaps. And that's where we're getting into problems. Well, it's bizarre, right? Even creating a profile. It's a joke.

01:10:01 - 01:15:04

I don't create a profile with four pictures and four quotes, and that's supposed to kind of like cover you on. That's why it doesn't matter. And that's you. I feel like I feel like the profiles that we've said this before. It's like we can not be filtering off profiles. There's no way that you're ever going to know if it's a maybe it's a yes, if they seem cute enough, good enough. Just have a conversation. That's all you can do. Filter that way. I think the more we can mimic real life with dating apps and not expect them to be this magical new way, the better. And I think sonica, you made another great point, another takeaway for me is we can't see these dating apps as the only avenue of meeting people. When you find connection in real life or in places that are unexpected, it makes you more hopeful about the dating apps too. But if you are just in this dating app metaverse, that is not a fun place. It's probably close to hell. And you've probably just want to get the fuck out. So the more you can diversify the ways of connecting with people, it's not meeting people. It's not about romantic meetups. It's about connecting with people in different ways than we put much less pressure on dating apps and expect a lot less from them. Yeah, we had Celeste heed Lee on our show last season and she made a comment of there is that dopamine hit you get from any in real life interaction. So even if it doesn't end in a result of a date or a relationship, there's still something you got from the experience where online you don't get that. So I think that is a very real thing that we can bring some of the tactics digitally, but we're holding things too much more of a result orientation on dating apps because that's the only thing we have to go off. Yeah. I think that's exactly it. That's why it becomes so frustrating because it's like, you know, there's got to be another way to do it. Maybe it was also just like tiny wise, right? We had a really hard couple of years and so now things maybe hopefully are shifting and changing and things will be like, we can come back to this in a couple of years or maybe a year or two and say what happened after do people open up more. I think that that's been really exciting and that's new. That's going to be you guys talked about it before too. It's like how are people going to change their behavior? Because all of a sudden they were forced into something where they had to take care of they took for granted the opportunity to be able to date and now it's like, no, actually, I do want to make a connection to somebody. Let me take you more seriously. I think regardless of where we meet people though, the real comment to nominator is ourselves. So the more we can, you know, be really authentic of intentional of what we're looking for. I know intentional such a buzzword, but I do keep holding on to it because I think we do need a direction. We can't just be roaming endlessly in today's world where there's so many potential directions. We need to have somewhat of a guide that stay open to the possibilities. The question is, is this LCD? Is this the lowest common denominator behavior I'm doing? Before you act from now on, everybody. Just ask yourself, is this LCD? Am I doing LCD? For sure. Yeah, that's what the accountability is, right? You have to ask yourself that question. Yeah, accountable to yourself. Fabulous. Any other takeaways, last words? I think that that's, I think, that that was a perfect one. I think that that was it. You have to ask yourself that. That sums up all of the things that we were talking about, right? Like showing up being there, having intentionality, like, what is it that you're looking for? Being able to set the bar for yourself as well. Is it the lowest common nonlinear? Are you defaulting back to something because somebody else cited it's okay for that to be behavior that's allowed, right? Yes. Yeah, well, I'm so glad you came out this show sonic. I feel like you put into words what a lot of people have been feeling thinking and haven't been able to explain because it is the perpetual cycle and we really just need to start getting out of the cycle, or it's not a good place for dating. Totally, yeah, right? As dating as apologists, as you guys are constantly thinking and looking at what that landscape is, what's on the horizon as far as modern dating. That's why I was speaking to you about it because I was like, it has to do with societal shifts. This has to do with social contracts. This is like unspoken. That's the thing that's occurring. How do I rewrite this unspoken social contract that we've all fallen into? Oh, I like that. I like that. Absolutely need to reverse it. That's for damn sure. Well, thank you so much, sonic. This conversation just reminds me of all of our drinks, conversations. More to come for all of our listeners. We will also want to hear about your LCD stories, your ideas, we need to crowdsource ideas of how we can rise up and really get out of the bad dating toxic behavior that we're seeing today.

01:15:04 - 01:17:36

So thank you again for being part of the conversation. And for being part of the movement. This movement is starting. We're starting today right now, the three of us and where people are going to join this movement for our listeners. We also would like for you to join the movement a way to do that is to leave a rating and review in Apple podcasts, 5 stars, a little something about why you like us because we really like you, so hopefully this is a reciprocal relationship and we will never resort to LCD with you. We're constantly rising up and trying to bring you even better content every time. And you can always reach us at hello at dateable podcast dot com. If you like to tell us an idea, you have for a show or be a guest on our show. Okay, we're going to wrap up this episode. The dateable podcast is part of the frolic podcast network. Find more podcasts you'll love at frolic media slash podcasts. Want to continue the conversation? First, follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter with the handle at dateable podcast. Tag us in any post with a hashtag stay dateable and trust us. We look at all those pose. Then head over to our website dateable podcast dot com. There you'll find all the episodes as well as articles, videos, and our coaching service with vetted industry experts. You can also find our premium Y series where we dissect, analyze, and offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums. We're also downloadable for free on Spotify, Apple podcasts, Google Play, overcast, stitcher radio, and other podcast platforms. Your feedback is valuable to us, so don't forget to leave us a review. And most importantly, remember to stay dateable. Why choose proven quality sleep from sleep number? Because our sleep number 360 smart bet is really smart. It senses your movement and automatically adjusts to help keep you both comfortable. Plus, it's temperature balancing, so you stay cool. It's even smart enough to know exactly how long how well and when you slept, our smart sleepers get 28 minutes more restful sleep per night. Sleep number takes care of the science. All you have to do is sleep. Don't miss the final days of the biggest sale of the year, save 50% on the sleep number 360 limited edition smart bed ends Monday to learn more, go to sleep number dot com. Karen is the proven expert in addiction treatment, a recent independent study showed that 94% of Karen patients were still in recovery 90 days post treatment, visit CRON dot org slash real Karen, real results real care real about recovery.

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