S14E14: Dating as an Asian American Woman in Today's World w/ Janet Wang

00:00:01 - 00:05:06

The dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that The Huffington Post calls one of the top ten podcasts about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about everything from sex parties to sex droughts, date fails to diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host UA Shu, former dating coach turned dating sociologist. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Kraft chick as we explore this crazy dateable world. Hi, dateable. Welcome to another episode of the day we'll podcast, where we dig, dig, dig deep into the dating culture here and as part of the digging process, we do a lot of learning along the way. And this is why we love doing this podcast because Julie and I have just learned so much in the last almost 7 years. I feel like I'm a different person for what I started this podcast. You are. And I think you're a different person also. A 1000%. Like, I think just even looking back to the gender roles conversation from 6 years ago. 6 years ago, it's kind of cringey, but also I just have to accept that that was part of my growth. Oh my God. For anyone that doesn't know, UA was so traditional, such a stickler for never making the first move. And just waiting. I feel like you just did a lot of waiting. And actually in one of our recent episodes with Katie's Dorito, this was the episode that we did about taming your ITER critic and confidence while dating, and she said something that stuck with me that maybe she didn't make the first move because she didn't want to put herself out there. It felt like she would just get rejected. So it's almost like we shield ourselves with these rules to not actually be vulnerable and put ourselves out there. I also have to say, you know, when I was a dating coach, I had all male clients, and they would tell me the same thing. They would say, I would love if a woman hit on me, but I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with her because she was too easy. For me to get. So I think these are like, we're just perpetuating a lot of these stereotypes and tropes in modern dating that I'm glad that we're breaking the barriers, but for so long, I think men and women were playing into these roles and actually believing that this is what was happening. Yeah, well, it's a sign that the times also. Another side of the times is the episode we're doing today because I am so glad that we're finally doing another look at dating as an Asian woman right now because clearly a lot has changed in the last two years with COVID and a lot of blame being placed on even Asian Americans because of COVID resulting in AAPI hate crimes and a lot has changed with just how we look at race from the whole pandemic and aftermath and I'm glad that we're opening this conversation again. And then last two years, so our guest is from the Asian boss girl podcast, ABG, and her name is Janet. But in the last two years, their podcast, she does his podcast with two other women, Asian women, melody, and Helen. So their podcast really blew up during this time because it became so relevant, not that it wasn't relevant before, but I think more people were seeking the sort of content. And I love that on their podcast. They talk about all facets of their lives as related to their cultural backgrounds. And one of the co hosts Helen just had a baby. She's married with a baby and then melody and Janet, who we have on our show. They're both single and trying to navigate this whole dating scene like all of us and there's the added layer of being Asian women. So I'm glad we're having this open conversation because I think even in the beginning of this, I was just saying like I would love to know what's going on because I'm not in the dating scene anymore and I want to know if things have changed from the last time I was even swiping on the apps because you've definitely had your experiences and we'll get into them in the episode but you've shared a lot too and I think it's really interesting especially for me who's clearly not Asian, but it's really good to continue to hear other people's perspectives because I think this is something that is very prominent in my Asian communities of friends and very rarely comes up in my white group. So I think it's just a testament that a lot of the stuff is siloed unfortunately and I feel like even recently I don't see it on the mainstream news but like may Lee, who is one of our past guests? Does a phenomenal job reporting on all the Asian hate crimes that are happening, but I'm always like, why is this not more prominent in other places? Yeah, and that makes me think about the timing of this episode because we are closing out API heritage month and usually I feel like every other year when we celebrate API heritage, it's been about celebrations. It's like about accomplishments. And this year I think people are really hoping to highlight some of the challenges and obstacles that the Asian community is going through.

00:05:06 - 00:10:08

So I feel like the media is not comfortable with that because they wanted to stay safe in the whole like let's just celebrate all the Asian figures and just sweep everything else under the rug, but this year I think the Asian community is like fuck this. If you are not going to report it, we're going to report everything that's going on. It's interesting. I mean, a few weeks ago, we talked about the recall of chessa boudin, which I just want to make a point that. I am now extremely self conscious about saying things incorrectly. And I went on Google and listened to Google Voice. I've had to pronounce his name. And it misled me. I always used to say chessa boudin. It said Jessa Buddha in that I listened to some speech the other day. And I'm like, God damn it. I was led astray. So anyways, that's my little quick caveat. I don't think I actually think it's pronounced like boudin. It's like no one knows how to pronounce this. Yeah, exactly. You're not the only one. Google does not know how to pronounce it either, clearly. What I thought was interesting though there is that the largest racial demographics that are voting for the recall for anyone out of San Francisco. This is the district attorney that is very soft on crime policies, and it has a recall because people feel unsafe in this environment. And the largest population of folks that are skewing towards voting yes on the recall are Asian Americans. And we actually got a lot of people that reached out saying thank you for addressing this on the podcast. We know this isn't a relationship topic, but it does impact our safety and I would say out of the people that reached out a large portion was Asian American. So I think this is something that is front and center of just like every day our daily lives are impacted because we don't feel safe in our communities. This isn't just SF. I mean, Asian hate crimes are all over the country right now. Yeah, I think people when they think about Asian hate crimes, they think it's about murders and shootings, which do exist, but I think people fail to forget or maybe this is just not out in the open, that Asians are always the target of petty crimes too. Break ins, burglaries, because of this idea that all Asians have money in all Asians have valuables, so you break into their cars and break into their homes or you rob them on the street. So just don't forget that the petty crimes are also part of the Asian hate crimes. Yeah. And there's like associations with being weaker and not being able to fight back, especially for women. And I think that's why it can be really scary. I think all women face danger, I think we all have heightened senses of danger. But I think it's really unfortunate that people feel like unsafe, elderly people, unsafe to leave their homes and take a walk. It's horrible. What's going on right now? Yes, yes. I want to just quickly bring up the church shooting because my heart is breaking for the family of the Doctor Who died trying to basically save the entire community that he was with. He really went after the shooter and he was shot and he later died, but I just want to quickly touch upon this issue too because it's a Chinese man shooting a Chinese community and you can call them Chinese or Taiwanese. I know it's very polarizing. End of the day, they're Chinese or they're of Chinese descent. And it's really sad that with all the Asian hate crimes going on, we still have turmoil within our own community that we can't somehow get over. So it's double whammy, right? It's like we're getting it from the outside communities, but we're also getting it internally. And I hope that we can have more conversations with in our own communities about what's going on and how we can be more unified instead of freaking killing each other. It's just not the way to progress. Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up. And I think yeah, like this episode two conserve as for our Asian community listeners, which we know there are a lot of, as you know, feeling like I'm not alone in this, that other people are going through these same struggles, but I think also for anyone that's not in the Asian community. It's really important to listen to be there for your Friends to be there for the people you date. You may be dating people that have these struggles that you're just totally unaware of and I mean like I found some of my white friends just don't understand it all. I think maybe I understand a little more because I'm a minority in itself as a Jewish person. We've experienced hate as well. But I think a lot of people that I don't want to stereotype too much, but a lot of people just don't seem to understand what's happening. So hopefully if you are on that boat, no shame, but the fact that you're here listening to an episode titled dating as an Asian woman, that's major props in itself. Yeah, props to you. And we've all been bullied somehow, right? Thinking back to high school, I just watched senior year on Netflix, terrible movie, but also great movie.

00:10:08 - 00:15:00

It just brought up so many feelings from high school of just being ostracized being the outsider being not cool enough or not good enough and not good-looking enough. We've all been there, right? And so it's very similar to feel like you're the other and then people hating you for things that are completely out of your control, like how you look and the color of your skin. Speaking of being bullied, I feel like you ate and I were bullied last week. Oh. A 1000%. I'm still mad. But amused. We try, okay, everyone knows we talk about ratings and reviews all the time. This is the livelihood of podcasts. So again, if you've left us 5 star review, thank you, thank you, thank you. It helps so much. If you've left us a four star or a three star, and there's less than nice comments, while we don't love seeing those, sometimes they can be helpful or we can at least understand where they're construct a feedback. Yes. Not ideal, still because it's the livelihood of our podcast and it's a free podcast. You could also just move on. But it's still better than what we received. The other day. Do you want to do the honors or do you want me to read it? Do you read it? You pulled it up, right? Okay. So we got this this review. UA text to me was like, did you see the latest review? Because we do get an email alert that comes through with any new rankings and reviews. It is titled two losers. Yeah, always a good start. One star. One star. Just two losers. They could leave zero. Just two losers who want women to be difficult obnoxious and unpleasant on is all capitalized. They also advocate for violence all capitalized towards men. Hopefully these garbage bags do get arrested for assault, arrested. I've never been called a garbage bag before. It's kind of fun. It's a first, or a loser. Yeah. Like outwardly, call the loser. We did share this to love at the time of Corona or Facebook community, seeing if people could help us out because this does, like we said, it does reflect on the podcast. Someone did say like hopefully your listenership would be smart enough to realize that this is not true. But you know, new people coming in, they don't know, because they've never listened before. We want to say thank you to everyone that kind of rallied to support us. Seeing the really nice reviews that came in, it may be tear up. It was so nice to see that, but just like how people, there were so many people that were like, look, I've been listening for years and honestly, I just have been lazy, and I haven't written a review. This is like Yelp culture. Usually you don't leave the review unless it's really bad. For the most part, it's extra steps people have to take. They're like, this is my extra step, and I willing to take it because this freaking sucks that you guys had a face miss. Y'all have our back. Thank you for having our back and we feel like we have your back. So if we are portraying the content in any way that feels like we are telling women to be difficult. Please let us know because we've tried really hard not to do that. The goal of our content is to help everyone be more open minded when it comes to dating and to learn about what's out there and not to subscribe to specific behaviors and we really hope this is not something we're trying to portray and judging by the reviews I came in after. I don't think that we're doing that, but call us in if we are. I mean, yes, of course, if there is that police call us it, I feel like this was an anomaly, like a lot of people commented did this person even get the right podcast or this sounds like an incel movement. I think there is a lot of that is we don't know who's behind the review too. We were able to see that this person left another review that was also a long the same lines for a different test, but gave it 5 stars. I was like, what the fuck? It was basically like this podcast is sexist and telling women that they should do all this stuff. But that it was like 5 stars. What? Could we at least got in the 5 star if we're going to get this review? Oh, they got confused. What are the star ratings mean? Well, end of the day, all we're trying to do is create good content. And this is very intentional what we're doing here. So I really hope that after this, we can move on from this comment. Thank you all for hiding it. And knocking it down. The list, but end of the day again was like this is what gives us purpose with this podcast is to give you all great content and hopefully make dating better for all. Yeah, I think the fee of this plus this entire episode is let's continue to spread love that hate because hate is bad.

00:15:02 - 00:20:05

It's so bad. I do want to spread some love to a very small dateable LA gathering. We had over the weekend. So I can name all of them because there are four of us. We've got Brian and Tony and Kim. Thank you all for coming out. We had such a great dinner. We were welcoming Tony to LA. He just moved from New York and just a really fun conversation because it was the first time I had met my met Brian in person before, but first time meeting Kim and Tony in person. And Julie was really excited about me meeting them in person, especially Tony because we've had him on our podcast and she's like, oh my God, tell me what he's like in person and he's the same. He's the same cool and great guy that he has in person. Well, Tony and Brian are moderators of love in the time of Corona and hosts of the sounding board. So we've known them for a long time and Brian has also been a guest on the podcast. And Kim has been a member of the sounding board for quite some time too. So it's really nice to meet the people that we engage with digitally so much. Yes. Yes, it was so much as well. Well, other announcements speaking of engaging digitally, we are rereleasing our finding your person program. Yay. This will be coming up. We're not saying the date quite yet, but make sure you get on the wait list because you'll be getting some freebie goodies by going on the wait list. You'll be getting some videos that we've put out that kind of describe the method to our madness. So make sure to get on the wait list at finding your person dot com so you get all of these and then you can also decide if this is the right program for you. This will be our third cohort and we love seeing the results of this and just how people shift their whole mindsets. They start to see dating in a different way and of course with that comes better prospects in budding relationships. We've had people that come in that are just deciding if they should end a relationship that they're currently in. We've had people that are at the start of a budding relationship and they want to get it off the ground in the right way and then we also have people that you know have been on the apps and have been dating for quite some time and feel stuck and want a different approach. So regardless of where you're at, there's a good chance that this program would be a good fit for you, of course we'll let you decide that and you can do so by getting on the wait list and seeing those videos firsthand. So head on over to finding your person dot com. This is where you can get on the wait list and get all the updates to come. Cool. And then last an announcement follow us on Instagram at dateable podcast. That's where we show the clips of these episodes. We share inspirational quotes. We had a really good one that went up the other day of don't let anyone rent space in your head unless they're a good tenant, so if you want to feel good inspiration, just go over to our Instagram. We're here to support you in all methods and all digital mediums. Woohoo. Okay, so before we get into the episode, let's hear from our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by murad skin care, a line of clinically proven, cruelty free products that meet the meticulous standards for safety, efficacy and care you expect from a doctor. One of my favorite products is the invisa scar resurfacing treatment, which I've already seen some results from from using it for just a few weeks. Founded by doctor Howard murad, who is a board certified dermatologist and trained pharmacist, recognized around the world as a visionary for his unmatched scientific innovations, murad has also launched a digital magazine and a podcast called well connected by murad, connecting the dots between science and wellness. Find the digital magazine at well connected dot murad dot com and the podcast well connected by murad wherever you listen to your podcast and for data listeners only go to Mira dot com and enter the code date for 20% off and free shipping for orders of $60 or more. Again, that's mura dot com and enter the code data date for 20% off and free shipping for $60 or more. Okay, let's hear it from Janet's. We're talking about dating, no surprise there. But we're adding this layer of race. And I always think about this dating is so complicated as is, with all the bad dating behavior, the dating etiquette, and what you do in modern dating, and then you add this extra layer of complexity of race and it's very fascinating what has happened to dating in recent years and Julie and I have been out of the dating scene. So I wanted to really understand what has been happening during COVID and now as we coming out of the pandemic, especially for Asian women. So that's why we have Janet with us today. She is the co host of the podcast called Asian boss girls fantastic podcast with three Asian women they chat about everything from career dating, family relationships, culture, identity, et cetera she's 36 years old, currently lives in LA originally from Mission Viejo, hi Jana, how are you? Hi ladies, I am so good.

00:20:05 - 00:25:09

Thank you so much for having me. Thanks for coming on our show. So I guess we should just get right into it. And I love that Julie is a one. I remember we had this conversation, Julie. You're like, I wonder what's like dating as an Asian person now, right? Because with all the Asian hate with COVID, what has been happening. So before COVID let's just rewind. What was your experience Janet dating as an Asian woman when race was kind of part of the conversation? Yeah, so I want to just preface this conversation as this is fully my experience and it may be very different from everyone else's. But I had been dating for most of my 20s and 30s, very open to any race. In terms of my actual experience prior to the dating apps became the norm. When I was growing up, my first boyfriend was Chinese American and I dated a couple of Chinese American guys, but I also dated an Indian American guy and have also casually dated Caucasian guys and European as well. So I've usually been fairly open in my younger years when I was just kind of looking to create connections with people. However, as I got older, like into the last like 5 or so years, I've been dating with more intention. So that might be a little different for me as well because prior to COVID during that period, I had just started kind of looking more seriously for her partner. So for me, when it came to thinking about race, I started to be more focused in my search because as a Chinese American woman after a while of dating and seeing some of my friends, both Chinese American and different cultural backgrounds get married. I noticed that I was like, you know what? If I can find someone who shares my cultural understanding, that would be a really big plus. It's not like exclusive and it's not totally off if that person doesn't share my background, but I knew that that would be something great if I could find it. And I'm much more dependent on friend introductions because I found that in the last couple of years, those were the most fruitful matches that I had. So a lot of my search now very honestly, I'm looking for Asian American men. But I'm also still open to dating other races. It's just less, I haven't been on as many dates with non Asian people, I guess, in the last couple of years. I love the word intention and I think especially as we search for a more of our life partner and tension seems to be the word. What does that mean to you in regards of sharing those cultural experiences together? Yeah, I mean, I think a huge one for me is my family, like my parents, as much as they outwardly say, they're like, we support you being with anyone and whoever makes you happy, especially now that I'm like, a lot older, they're like, please, just like anyone. It doesn't matter. But also within my family, my sister has dated mostly Caucasian men. And her very serious boyfriend of the last 7 years is also Caucasian. He comes for family dinners and he's met all of our family. So they're not like pushing that I have to look for someone who's Chinese. But I think the reality when I imagine my partner being able to come home with me on the weekends and communicate with my parents in a more fluid way, that would be preferred and that'd be great. And also because in the last couple of years, my social life and my profession have become much more focused on the Asian American experience with podcasts like Asian boss girls. So that means my social circle is also a lot of individuals who balance their cultural identity. And so if I'm going to bring someone into that lifestyle, it's helpful if they also have their own personal experience that can relate to. So that's kind of some of the thinking behind that. But once again, like I say, it's not, it's not that I'm like exiting out anyone, whatever, but it's just, I think, my life circumstance. I feel like there was a key turning point and that was Black Lives Matter for me. That was a moment where I really examined my own biases, but also just my own views on race and culture and how much I had so much self hatred. And I didn't realize that till that movement had happened. And I'm curious to know, and I'm not sure if that was a turning point for you, either Janet, but before then, did you experience much discrimination when it came to dating? Yeah, so this question I find interesting because I have heard so many stories from Asian women who have been approached negatively on dating apps or in person. And I have a really hard time thinking myself to any direct experience like that. I don't know if it's maybe the way I present on a profile or whatever it is that they might look at me as more nerdy than I don't know if that makes sense or whatever it might be, but I mean, I had never had anyone call out directly because of race, but I will say sometimes when people try to connect on interests. Like if their profile shows a lot of martial arts and then they have a conversation with me around that. And I still try to figure out for myself. I think it's such a gray line between someone who's appreciating a culture and someone who is looking at me and my culture as a fetish as a fetish, yeah.

00:25:09 - 00:30:03

So when you said they comment on martial arts, it's not because you have stuff about martial arts just because they associate Asian Americans or Asians. Or more like if on their profile, they have something of them, I don't know. I can tell that they may be practice martial arts, and then when they know when we connect and we have a conversation, I'm kind of like, if they start to direct the conversation around kind of interest like that, then I'm kind of like, what is your interest in me? In the case made the assumption. Okay, so fetishization have you seen sexual fetishization too? Yeah, that's a great question. I personally have not. I have not, I can't think of like an actual direct experience where I've had that, but I have also heard stories from girlfriends where they did. And yeah, I think that can be a very, very great line. Because it's so strange that within the bedroom and within sexuality, it can be a place where almost like anything goes, right? Because the psychology of people being like what turned someone on and then if it's considered fantasy and what's right and what's wrong. I don't know how I would react, but I've never been in a place where I felt like wow, you went like you said something that I found completely offensive. You a, you've got and stuff though before, right? Yeah, and I was kind of thinking, what is the line though? I get really offended quite easily when it comes to stuff like that. But maybe I'm just more sensitive to it, but my boyfriend, he told me that for a while he was dating, there would be non Asian women who put anime and KPop in their profiles and they loved him because he's Asian and he loved it. He was like, this is great. I'm getting all this attention. To me, I would have been so offended by that. If someone had KPop and anime in their profile and all of a sudden they think I'm the right fit for them. So what is the line? And I also have girlfriends who just came to the U.S. from China and they love that too. They see it as cultural appreciation. And I get really offended. So what do you think is a line there? That is a great observation. And this is something that I had a lot of trouble with because I think growing up mostly in a Caucasian neighborhood. I mean, there were other ethnicities, but for the most part, like it was more predominantly Caucasian, and it being around the 90s. I feel like people looked at race and culture in a way where it's like, we're all the same. Like no one's and sometimes that makes it even harder for you to realize like, to accept and be able to celebrate how you're different. That's why whenever I then went to college and then in working environment met other women Asian women who had maybe grown up in other environments where they were more subjected to direct racism, that they would react more on the defense. So if someone comes to you and is what I might look at as appreciation, someone else is like, wow, you're trying to stereotype me and you're limiting and boxing me in into this just one thing. I think it comes down to the individual person at that point. If that person is offended, that is what determines the line. I feel like it's the person that the person that is offended is who determines the line. And I think it's different for every person. Julie, I'm curious how you would feel if a non Jewish man had all these Jewish interests in their profile, and they approached you and told you how much they loved Jewish women. How would that make you feel? You know, I had an ex-boyfriend that dated mostly Jewish. And non Jewish guy. It actually didn't bother me because I'm like, oh, I'm like his type. But I get why that would be different for different people. I don't know. I feel like maybe there's like less Jewish people at San Francisco. It doesn't seem like there's me. Well, I guess it's kind of like why he, why would he pursue Jewish women? Because his answer was like, oh, it's because I noticed that they tend to share this value and I also have this value. And I think if someone approached me like that, they were not Asian and they were like, oh, I have dated more women Asian ethnicity in the past because I find they generally have this quality or they generally value this and then from the way that I was raised, I also value these things. Right. I think that's different than if they're like, oh, yeah. Do you chopsticks? Are things where it's like, I don't know, more where it feels like you're looking at me, like you have a preconceived notion of who I am based off of other ideas. I think a big piece of it too is on dating apps for instance. You don't know this person at all. So you're just taking superficial things or you're taking things from a culture and a suit, making a lot of assumptions. So in the scenario I gave, it was not from a daily app. I think if someone hit me up on a dating app and was like, I love bagels. I don't know, I'm just like making things up. Maybe I don't know, it's hard to say. It feels different to me for some reason yet. I know it's not. And I don't know why it feels different to me. Yeah, yeah. Because this feels more personal when it's not on a dating app, right? Like they're saying this to you specifically, not to like every Jewish girl out there.

00:30:03 - 00:35:00

Yeah, I think the religion piece to race feels different to me too for some reason. I think it's because I'm not really practicing as a Jewish person either. Where I feel like maybe it's more of like a decision I made, where race is like, this is who I am. I don't know. I guess from your more serious relationships. Like, what did the makeup of those people look like? Were they also Asian or did you kind of date across the board there too? I would say the more serious relationships were Asian American. And that was the thing that I realized too is especially now with the dating apps where I'm able to connect with so many different types of people. Someone who's Asian but from Asia or even one of the guys I dated more seriously just was raised abroad. So he came over to the U.S. I think for college or whatnot, but he grew up internationally, just that alone I could see that that was we had less in common than someone who is of Asian ethnicity but raised in America. Like in that respect, sometimes I shared more commonality with one of the guys I did who was Indian American because he has Indian cultural, his parents are ethnically Indian, and then he was raised in kind of the more similar community that I was in terms of his americanness. Right. Got it. And was race ever a problem in a relationship for it to get more serious. Did that ever become an obstacle? And I'm asking this because from personal experience, I felt like dating I could date so many different kinds of people and so many different kinds of people want to date me. But when it comes down to settling and getting married, my pool was much smaller. Your pool meaning that you preferred. I guess who who would also want to marry me. I mean, I've dated so many guys who were like, you're my first Asian girlfriend, and then when it comes down to, oh, should we get married? They're like, oh, no. I can't see this. I was like more a novel for that. Yes. Like dating wise, I can sample the buffet. But if I only can take one dish home, oh no. That's not the dish. I'm taking home. Interesting. Yeah, I don't know that I've ever had a conversation with someone I dated who is non Asian about, could you see me as your wife? Maybe it's just that it never got quite that serious with someone who was on each. I had like kind of like semi serious relationships with guys who are non Asian. And it was never communicated to me that it would be a problem. And the guy who was Indian American, he had actually his previous girlfriend was Filipino American, so I think that his parents already were accustomed to their son maybe bringing home someone who was like Asian American, but maybe not the type of Asian that they are. Right. Yeah. Well, 2020 was sort of Lee. I feel like the year. It's interesting because you brought up BLM, UA, but I think also just, you know, with the pandemic and it being labeled the China virus at all the hate crimes that came from the pandemic that were across the board. How did this impact your dating life? Did you see a difference when the pandemic hit? Yeah. You know, one thing that was kind of interesting is not directly in 2020, but I think more in 2021, I started to realize that I think I'm connecting with less white guys. And it might be, I mean, yes, I was saying maybe I'm swiping. I still continue to swipe on, I think, pretty open the culturally. But I was not meaning they were not swiping right on me as often. And I wonder if some of that comes as a result of all of the stuff socially and politically that was happening. Like, are they turned off by Asian women now? Or so I was like either you either you now associate me with the virus or something like that and you're not attracted or are you like I'm afraid to like to provoke her in any way or something like that. That was something that kind of crossed my mind recently. And that's something I kind of wonder too when this whole thing went down. I was like, well, if I were dating now, would it be totally different? Did you see anybody putting anything in their profiles that had to do with Asian hate? I saw people call it out more as I support this and because they were like, look, this is where I stand politically and socially and I don't really want to connect with someone who doesn't. And usually I saw on the side of pro like as an ally. So people that were saying, I'm pro BLM and pro anti Asian hate, and they were clearly not Asian or not black, just to be like, this is where I stand politically. And I don't want to connect with someone who maybe doesn't. Yeah. So then, okay, I want to just bring up these statistics because I think we can't forget this, right? The FBI reported a 77% increase in Asian hate crimes from 2019 to 2020. Between March of 2020 and June of 2021, more than 9000 anti Asian hate incidents were self reported to the stop AAPI hate group. And the vast majority of Asian Americans 82% agree that as a group, we feel that we face discrimination as a result of the coronavirus pandemic. So why I want to bring this up because we can't forget this.

00:35:01 - 00:40:00

And most mainstream media is not reporting on this anymore. They think it's something that's not happening anymore. But it is still happening. So with all of that in mind, do you think that your experience dating is changing as a result of this? Or do you think it's kind of like, it'll just go back to normal once this whole thing blows over. I think it's definitely changing. It's evolving. And I think it's going to be a slow and long change. I guess how I would reward that is maybe in 2020, 2021, I could see how more directly it's a more chaotic shift up just because people are really in it. But I think that anything that happened like it did for us as a world as a nation as humankind in the last couple of years. That's going to have long-lasting impacts. And I think that there will be a lot of residual once again, like I said, it could be something as undertone as someone swiping left on my profile because now they see Asian and they just subconsciously are like, no, no, no, you know. And that's really hard to quantify, but it's like, I feel like you have a little. Yeah, and also it's like when you go, I mean, it's been hard because I'm still like, I haven't resumed my natural social activities, post COVID, where I'm going out a bunch, but I would also feel like now, if I'm going out to bars and if I'm going out to clubs and stuff, there might also be a, just maybe a different way that people will be around me, right? Whether it is out of their own personal fear or out of a desire to not offend or something like that. And it's hard to say from that, once again, I feel like it's going to be very undertone and subconscious. And with really, very real effects. Have you gotten any blatant remarks or has it been more of this unconscious? It's all kind of, I think, as an undertone. I'm trying to recall if there's any, I don't feel like I've had encountered any direct hatred put on to me personally, but I mean, I watch the news and just social anything that you see and I know it's happening all around. I don't know if it's just my own psyche, but I know for a while when it first started within 2020 me, just going out to the grocery store, sometimes I just felt like I'm very clearly an Asian woman to feel someone looking at me a certain way or them maybe stepping to the side and avoiding kind of like, is that something you would do regularly, or why are you walking extra far from me than someone else? Yeah. And once again, those are things that not any action that's done that's like blatant or insulting, but is it could be picked up that way? Yeah, 'cause now we do live in an environment where you can easily offend someone. So I think a lot of people have this mentality of I rather just avoid it and not say anything as opposed to getting myself in trouble. Yes. Let's hold that thought for a few messages. Have you ever thought about how much better dating would be if you had a whole army of people supporting you along the way? We know that dating can be frustrating and lonely, but it can also feel fulfilling and fun. Have you recently decided you want to make some changes to your love life? Maybe you've recently reentered the dating scene. Maybe you've gone on one too many dates that went nowhere, or maybe you're just ready to take your current relationship to the next level. That is exactly why we created the sounding board, a true extension of our podcast that delivers a personalized experience, which includes monthly office hours where you can drop in and chat with us about anything. Weekly sound offs with guided discussions and regular virtual happy hours, allow Julie and I to become your dating sherpas to provide real-time guidance and wisdom in a more intimate way so we can all navigate dating and relationships together. Join the sounding board today by going to dateable podcast dot com slash sounding board. Again, that's dateable podcast dot com slash sounding board. I mean, I'm clearly not an Asian woman. You're not. You have more Asian friends than I do. So you basically are. I guess what I was gonna say. I feel like a pivotal moment for me and again, I'm not Asian woman. So I want a caveat to say that was. The shootings in Atlanta. Because I feel like that moment there were a couple things. I think one was that a white man could just go in and have a bad day and be upset and shoot a bunch of people that are working essentially in more of, it was in the spa. So it was like a more sexualized industry. And I feel like it's at a few things. It's like one, the way that we looked at race, historically, was very black and white. And I feel like there was a lot of undercurrent that was missing from the conversation. And I remember talking to some of my friends being like, why do you think that's the case? Why do you think this isn't as vocal? And I remember one of them saying that, you know, it's like Asians are considered the model minority. And it's almost like, oh, we're going to feel bad because you have a lot of money or like, oh, you're going to feel bad because you're highly educated. And I think it under the undercurrent is that it essentially pushes away all the bad stuff that's happening.

00:40:00 - 00:45:00

You can't justify that. So I think that was one part that was super interesting, but then the other side was the sexualization. And I remember I had this guy friend that was horrible at retrospect. We are not friends at a war. I remember him just being like, oh, Asian girls are so hot, they're so bendy. Gross stuff. But as like a white woman, you're just like, oh, white men like Asian women. Like that was kind of like the scenario. And it took me, I think, one, having a lot of Asian women, Friends, but then also that the shooting to be like, no, we do not want to be seen in this way at all. This is not a compliment whatsoever. What are your thoughts about this overarching sexualization? And also just like the model minority and maybe not getting the same, I don't know, empathy is maybe the right word. Yeah, the model minority myth is definitely one that I feel like personally I've had I've done a lot more internal thinking about because of the last couple of years and just overall more conversations with people. And I will be completely honest and say that when I was younger and in the corporate environment, sometimes I felt like I would reap the benefits of that stereotype, right? Because being hardworking, being smart, like those are all things that work to your benefit or someone just assumes that about you. But it's later now and especially with the social and political climate in the last years, I see how incredibly damaging that way of thinking is. And with things like the shooting that you see, obviously, these are women that don't necessarily look like the Asian people that people portray on TV. Are they working in tech? Are they in some respects? I always feel like when things go to shit and it's really bad, there will hopefully it means that they're like the current system is being shaken up and there will be new ways of thinking evolving. My hope is that us talking about the model minority and it becoming a more widely known concept will mean that people will start to understand that it is a that it is just that it's a concept that isn't quite like in match with what is happening in reality. When it comes to the sexualization of women, I have an issue with sexualization of women period. Regardless of their ethnicity. So I think I always came to it from that perspective, being someone who I can't say never because I don't, but who very rarely encountered being sexualized for my ethnicity. I always the small things of like walking down the street and being whistled to or having someone call out to you. I feel like those are experiences that every woman can relate to. And I always cringed whenever that happened. So but to see on the news something like this happen to see faces that look like. It's one thing for it to be, you know, a woman that looks like you, but I think what really was challenging for me was like, I'm like, these are people that look like people I care about. Like my aunts and my mom and my sister, you know, or to see them reflected in such a way that was so compromising, that makes you vulnerable not only based off of your ethnicity, but also your gender identity, that was I think just another level of just, you don't even have the words for it. But just you just feel like, yeah. And I think I'm going to relate this back to dating because there is a relationship there and just follow me for a sec here. I think this is the problem with dating as an Asian American in America, is that our narrative is not ours. People are taking our narrative and when you have this stereotype of a model minority, people assume you're all this one narrative, right? So this is why I have problem with people saying, I love Asian that girls, I love, you know, the Asian culture because you don't know me, you don't know my story, but you all of a sudden you think you know me and you're taking that away from me. And with a model minority same thing, you know, Asians in America have the highest discrepancy in terms of wealth. But people don't understand that. They think all Asians are rich. They think all Asians are educated. That is so not the case. And my favorite story is when Constance Wu came out with this tweet about how much she hated doing fresh off the boat. And people were like, oh my God, I can't believe she's complaining. She has such a great job. She's doing her dream work. And there was an article that came out and said, you know, because the bitch Asian is not a story that people have told yet, there are many stories of the Asian American woman or the Asian American man. We just haven't heard all those stories yet. So that is my issue with what we're saying here with dating is that just because you look a certain way doesn't mean that someone knows you right away, they don't know your story. They haven't gotten to know you yet. That's very, very well put. And I think that that probably is one of the single most damaging aspects of the model minority myth is just a stripping away of the individualism of Asian American people and really just applying this overall like, hey, this is who you are without just offering you the mic.

00:45:00 - 00:50:01

I guess. Right. Yeah. And you might be able to go into this more. But we actually did an episode where I interviewed UA and she interviewed me two separate episodes. And we pulled our audience to get questions and one person wrote in about what's it like to date as an Asian woman. And UA, you said something like that has stuck with me so much and I'll let you elaborate on it because I'd love to know Janet if you've ever felt this way too of feeling like I should date white men because I'm almost like winning in the game by doing that. It's seen as success by doing that. Yeah. In all elaborate on this a little bit more and I'm frankly really embarrassed by some of the things I've said in my early 20s. I wrote a blog post about how I do not date Asian men. And it was a whole thing about why I think Asian men look like my cousins. I don't want someone who looks like me. There are two similar to me and I got so much hate for and I didn't understand why at that time. And I realized I carried all this self hatred with me throughout the years and I never unraveled it until recently. And as part of my thinking was, my parents came all the way from China, why would I want to date a Chinese man or an Asian man if they brought me all the way to America, so obviously they brought me here to elevate my status by being with a white man. That's kind of and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only Asian woman who's thought about this. Right, right. But of course, in recent years, all this has changed my current partner is Taiwanese American very much embrace my culture, but I have so many years to unravel in a very short amount of time in the last few years to think about this. What do you think, Janet? Oh my God, that must have been a crazy experience because I know you're not alone in that way of thinking and then to have to have to break open that whole like understanding, oh my God, I have like self cultural biases to have all of that happen while you're also made to feel like a victim and vulnerable during the last two years is a lot to endure. And I think a lot of people have had a similar experience that you had. And I can say like, I definitely went through my personal journey as well. I think because I started doing Asian boss girl in like 2017. I kind of started on the journey then. Like I said, growing up in Orange County, California, and in the specific community that I was in, we were all raised to believe that everyone is equal. No one's better or worse, right? But yes, you have these undertones of this idea that if I am not the majority and my family came here and I am in other person isn't the goal to become normalized and if the normal person looks white, shouldn't I be aiming for that, right? Right. And once again, these are things that are not said out loud. It is all based on nuances of actions and small beliefs that are expressed through conversations at the dinner table that you just develop a natural propensity for a white person. And I had to kind of go through my own thinking, because I was always like, you know, I'm just open to all ethnicities, and all races, and I'm not against any, but I had to confront, I do have an idea in my mind that a white man is superior. Did I deny my personal dating experience, think that a white person was going to be better than Asian person, not necessarily, but I definitely had this thinking that they are a higher social status, right? Because I'm just the way that the society that I was raised in. But I think because I started doing the podcast with melan Helen and also then being around a lot of Asian American friends who had such different experiences than myself. I started developing or being exposed to many different ways of thinking before that. And also, I met a lot of a lot more Asian guys. A lot of my issue was that I didn't grow up with a lot of agents. Yes, exactly. So what's your environment? It's very much your environment. And so for me, now I feel like because of the community I'm in, my social circle, the work that I do, I just am exposed to a lot more Asian men. And so I just, obviously, then it's like the percentage of people that I'm attracted to then who are Asian. It's like just higher and I think also being someone who is looking for a more permanent life partner, I'm now more focused on those things of like, can you relate to my family and my culture? And then especially after the last two years, and I will say like, my dad is more of like kind of a rational person and he's like, yeah, you know, shit is happening in the world, whatever you do as much as you can. My mom really responded with a lot of fear really what was happening. And a lot of concern and she just is so like, I think in that respect too for me, the idea of being able to bring home someone that feels that they understand the struggle. It would be just that much more familiar for them. That's what I wanted to ask you because we actually did this episode that we talked about trends and one of them was a dating apps would no longer have race filters because after BLM and other aspects in 2020, there was this push to be like, we shouldn't be filtering by race and be more open. But we got a listener email that said, and she was a black woman.

00:50:01 - 00:55:19

And she said, actually, I do want filters because I don't want to go through all these people that don't understand where I'm coming from in my background. What's your take on using filters should apps have filters? How do you use this? Yeah, this is a great question because I think that this really shows kind of the a, it's like the Ryzen technology changing dating so that you can access so many people. But then now with the social political climate, it's like, wait, so how much power a filtering do you give people? What becomes offensive and what becomes a more custom experience. And I personally have actually have I actually have. Actually, I did use I did use filters and I think it was very much to what she said was I wanted to focus in on the individuals that I felt like I would be able to relate more to. The thing with dating apps is it's catering to someone's very personal experience in their personal life. The dating app I don't think is a place for people, maybe it's different from the perspective of the app itself. But as a user of the app and trying to find my life partner, I think I have a right to not give everyone an equal chance because this is my life. If we're talking about a government or a service that I'm offering, then I should be open to everyone. But this is not a government service. This is me, which is in myself, right? Yeah. So in that respect, I feel like there is giving people access to that filter is a good thing. Yeah, it's so fascinating because I think kind of had this feeling of like, oh, it's not giving people an equal opportunity is we've heard from a lot of folks that there's a lot of discrimination on dating apps and all of that, but it was really fascinating to hear the opposite side. And I totally agree with you. It's like, you're on this hunt to find someone that's going to mesh with your life and be a good fit for you, like why not have this tool? Yeah. And to be honest, if you were to not provide that, people are going to filter anyways based on the images they see, right? Yeah. I don't know if that's the right thing to say or not, but I think that that's just and also from someone who would have been filtered out by someone else. Do I really want to be connecting with you? Right. Right. Right. You don't want to be like matcha messaging. This person that has no attention to her. I have this wild theory that coming out of the pandemic. There will be less interracial dating. The two groups that engage in the most interracial dating are Asian women in black men. And because of BLM and because of the ancient hate crimes, these are the two groups that are really turning to their own. Their own communities for support. And they're really bonding together. So I've heard multiple Asian women who are saying I only want to date Asian men now. I want to support my Asian community and black men as well who are saying I want to be with someone where I don't have to explain where I come from and what I've been through. And I personally have felt this too. I mean, I remember when the Asian hate crimes were happening, my boss held a meeting and said, my neighbor is Japanese, so I totally understand the Asian challenges that you are you all are facing. And I was like, oh hell, no, I could never date someone where I have to sit through them, explaining to me what I've been through. Fuck that. So that's my wild theory. I don't know if that's true, but I can kind of see this happening. Yeah, I think that's a really interesting theory, and I would agree. I think that makes complete sense that when we're going through the last two years or so, it's going to really reframe the way people think about dating. And looking for a partner because I feel like the trend before that was really, you know, I was thinking, I'm like, in the next couple of years, even just thinking about me and my sister and our generation of people, there's going to be a lot of just people with mixed cultures. Like in generations to come and I wonder, yeah, how this big event in history now won't potentially shift some of that. I mean, I definitely am all for obviously people being with who makes them comfortable and who there's a common bond. I don't know, I do think there is maybe there was a little bit of a step forward of dating apps opening up more interracial dating because I come from Boston originally and was very segregated there. Like every area is very segregated. And I don't know if that's the solution either. I'm just saying this as someone that has a lot of Asian friends or just interracial friends, I have a lot of friends of all races, not just Asian Americans, but I personally like that that I have that diversity. So I don't know. It's a tough situation because obviously I'm not going to speak as a white woman too. I don't know the pain of being with someone that understands culturally that aspect, but I do, I do worry that if we get super segregated again too. I completely agree. I feel like I've always been on the side of wanting to feel like I can relate to any human being. Or that I want the opportunity to. I think I don't know that there is a perfect solution. And it might just be that over the course of history, it's like sometimes you'll have periods where people are very, very welcoming and mixing together and then you'll have instances happen where will silo off and then sometime a couple generations down when these experiences have dissipated, then there will be more like mingling and then there will be a little bit more, it might just be that that is that is kind of the way.

00:55:19 - 01:00:03

But I do think that for our current time it does then require that we as individuals do make more of an active effort to connect with other people of different cultures. I do think the correction I like that. It's not a good situation either when we have just people that are out there dating people for a fetish. That is certainly not a step forward whatsoever. And I'm not saying that all interracial couples are in that boat whatsoever, but I do know there are some people that come to mind that old friend that I can think of felt borderline fetish, definitely not. I kind of think the problem is because it's existing within the U.S.. That's what's not uniting us, where segregating ourselves within one entity. If there was adversity against the U.S., I think it would be a different story. I think there will be a lot more of that us as a team, mentality. Right now, there's so much me versus you. I can't even express how much tension I feel every day between races between classes between all kinds of people and you feel like every day now. I just feel like I can offend easily offend anybody. I'm walking on eggshells. I just don't know any of the right things to say. And it's hard for me to, you know, it's hard for me to get out of my own race because within my own race, I don't have to explain anything. Right, right. Did you have any conversations with then non Asian friends like close friends in the past a couple of years and do you feel like your relationship with them changed because of yeah, I think Julie and I had some really deep conversations when those happening and we had kind of like a let's peel back the layers and talk about what is happening and why we're feeling this way. And it's been really great for our friendship. I'm not going to speak for you, Julie, but I feel like it's brought us closer because even when we are not recording, we would have these moments of like, I can't believe I used to think that way. I can't believe I can't believe that I had these thoughts before. I remember you invited me to an event. I think I read a bit like the only way a person. But I do think I really first of all, it was good for my own education, but I think it was in a perfect world, I would have been seeking that out on my own. I wish I was more proactive on that in retrospect. But in a second perfect world of glad that I had a friend that was able to share that. And I was able to make the time to go to it. Because I think it is important to understand where your friends are with things that are going on. I never want to be like the white person that makes some comment. Oh, I totally relate because my Japanese friend. Like that's horrible. Yeah, what about you, Janet? Yeah, I think I have actually a lot of close friends from high school who are Indian and Pakistani American. And so what was interesting is they can relate once I explained to them, right? But like when, for example, the shootings that happened for any other person when I text my sister when I text my friends who are Asian, I know that they're emotionally sensitive right now. And I like G chat and my Indian American friend and she's like, hey, what's up? Do you see the things that happen? She's like, yeah, you know, I was like, oh, let me explain that this is causing a lot of internal vulnerability for myself or for my Friends. And once you explain it that way, they're like, oh, yes, okay, I totally, I totally get it, right? Because they have an understanding of that sense of vulnerability a little bit. And it just needs to be addressed and let them know versus someone who just has no idea what it might feel like to have any type of experience like that. And also my friend who is Pakistani, like obviously when 9 11 happened, I think she had her own personal experience of something like this that she could relate to. I definitely think that this last two years has created a stronger bond with me and people of Asian American bringing, but also in any of my friends who are just like, I guess children of immigrants, it's also been like a really good, I guess, opportunity to have conversations. Yeah, the conversations are real. And I want to ask you Janet because on your podcast, you're very open about the fact that you want to have kids and you've been thinking about freezing your eggs and Julie just did. So if you ever need someone to talk to, you might do it here. But have you thought about if you were to raise your kids in today's environment? And they're just starting to date. How would you advise them to date in today's climate? I feel like I am still probably like my parents children and what I mean by that is my parents were always very like wanna be open and learn things for yourself and always try to understand other people's perspective. So I think I would take that that stance, but on the caveat that to help make sure that they're educated in the realities of how race affects dating. And I feel like that's something that my mom very much did when we always growing up.

01:00:03 - 01:05:04

She's always made it she made sure that my sister and I understood that we were Chinese American. We are not like everyone else in the community because we have a different ethnic background. But when it comes to any other like who we choose as a partner, she's like, I want you to figure it out yourself and be open because I was raised a certain way and I grew up in a certain world. That's not the world that you're growing up in. So you need to be educated and informed so you're not go out there and don't be defenseless in how people might judge you but at the same time like I very much like promote you going out there and developing your own opinion about things. I love that. This has been such a great conversation. I personally love hearing conversations like this because I think the more we can have conversations that obviously for all our Asian listeners, I think it's super helpful just to hear someone else's perspective. But for all our non Asian listeners, it's really important. I know that this is something that during the pandemic and hate crimes. In my white circles, it just wasn't as talked about as Asian circles. So hopefully my biggest takeaway here is opening this conversation can help us continue to open these conversations and pave way for us to continue to unravel. And I think that's what really stands to mind here is that just from listening to both of you too, this last couple of years has been a really important time of reflection to look at past beliefs to look at like how you actually feel and also for people that aren't Asian to also reflect back too. It's important where we're going in the future and if you are entering an iteration relationship or you have friends of different ethnicities, this is so important to keep these conversations going. Absolutely. I love that we're having this conversation and I'm sad that we didn't have it sooner because we could have used this before the Asian hate crimes. You started. But what I find so interesting is that when it comes to dating, people always think other people have it better. They have it easier. And I've heard this from Friends where they say, I think Asia women have it the easiest when it comes to dating, you're the mutual race, you can mix well with anybody. And anybody will want to be with you. I think we don't understand that again. We can't take other people's narratives. You don't know their story and just because there are certain look or gender or race, it doesn't mean that they've lived that story. You've played out in your head and guess what, when it comes to dating, nobody has it easier because nobody has their shit figured out. You know, that's for sure because we've been doing this podcast for almost 7 years. We know nobody has a shit figured out and no one race has it easier than the other. But I think at the end of the day, it's all about human connection and if we could just look at dating as not dating this one particular type of person, but you're connecting with another human being, no matter what they look like or what their background is, you find connection there, that's special. It has nothing to do with the superficial qualities of who they are. It's the connection. And I feel like we're losing that connection a little bit these days. Especially with COVID with us not seeing each other in real life. It's been hard to find that connection back and in a virtual world. It's so easy to fake that connection. It's so easy to filter that connection, but you don't actually get that connection until you're with someone in real life. So I would just highly recommend everyone to meet up with more people in real life safely please. Don't get COVID. But feel that connection again, we are we are one. We just look different, but we are one. And I hope we can get back to that someday. Assumptions are just so dangerous. And I think that's like with dating apps too. It's like, you just don't know enough about this person. And we fill in the blanks a lot of times and I feel like the more we can stop making generalizations on someone's profile and just go to having a conversation, that's when you'll get the connection. You'll still use technology, but use it in the way that it's an introduction, not that you're figuring out someone's life story just by looking at their photo. Yes, yes. And Janet, we have lots of single people listening to our podcast. And I know that you are single, ready to mingle, and I know you face some heartbreaks last year, but you're doing a reset this year, which is fantastic. And also you've said that you like being introduced to friends, friends. So we're going to take this moment and just give a shout out to Janet, who is a wonderful woman. Now, what are some of the qualities you're looking for in a person? Oh, that's very sweet, ladies. Thank you for allowing me this platform. Our very dearest dearest president, all the listeners out there. I think probably the number one thing I look for in an individual is like character character and compassion.

01:05:05 - 01:09:27

And outside of that, one of the biggest lessons I've learned these last few years is that I don't know that it makes sense to have a list or to have a type. When we talk about that having that connection with the person, probably is going to correlate a little bit with our ethnicity or whatever. But for the most part, I've learned that, yeah, you can really connect with some people that you didn't think you could. And people that you thought you would connect with, you don't. So yeah, if there's one thing I would look for though, I do look for character and compassion. But outside of that, I don't know, I'm pretty, I guess, also chemistry, and that's something that's hard to break down. That kind of only figure that out when you meet each other, yeah. I love that. I remember hearing somewhere I can't remember where when someone asks you what your type is, you're just like, I'm looking for someone wonderful. That's what I'm looking for. Yeah. Someone went, okay, so we're looking for someone wonderful. Hopefully someone who lives in LA, but you know, we can make long distance work. We can make that work. And Jennifer anybody who's listening right now who is sort of going through their own internal transformation when it comes to race and understanding their roots and understanding their past in relation to dating and finding a partner. What is some advice you give to them as they go through with this journey? Yeah, I think being able to have conversations with the people close to you. People who know you deeply and whether that's someone who shares your ethnicity and culture or someone who doesn't, maybe it's not maybe if you also not a person through conversation journal about it. But I always find that when you're experiencing a lot of shift or change, being able to have to articulate it helps you formulate your opinion and your conclusions on things. Wonderful. Cool. And Janet of people want to find out more about you and the Asian boss girl podcast, where can they find all that information? Yes. Asian boss girl, we are on all the podcasting platforms Spotify Apple podcasts anywhere that you listen to your pods and we're also on Instagram or handle is at Asian boss girl. We also have a YouTube channel. As for myself personally, I'm on Instagram at Janet W, that's Janet and then the word double and the letter U confusing. Fantastic. Thank you, UA and Julie for having me. This was an incredible conversation. I don't get to talk to too many people about dating nowadays outside of melon Helen, so you have two more women to talk about it. And for all of our listeners, what we appreciate is a review in Apple podcasts, 5 stars is like the way to be and coming from Asia household, like 5 stars as the minimum, you can get. You think below that is failure. So please. Don't do that. Don't do it. Don't do that. You don't want to fail us. And we really appreciate your support listening to us and it helps us get great guests like Janet here. Okay, we're going to wrap up this episode. The dateable podcast is part of the frolic podcast network find more podcasts you'll love at frolic media slash podcasts. Want to continue the conversation? First, follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter with the handle at dateable podcast. Tag us in any post with a hashtag stay dateable and trust us. We look at all those pose. Then head over to our website dateable podcast dot com. There you'll find all the episodes as well as articles, videos, and our coaching service with vetted industry experts. You can also find our premium Y series where we dissect, analyze, and offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums. We're also downloadable for free on Spotify, Apple podcasts, Google Play, overcast, stitcher radio, and other podcast platforms. Your feedback is valuable to us, so don't forget to leave us a review. And most importantly, remember to stay dateable. What if your next cloud project could lead to climate resilient housing? Join Fannie Mae use emerging tech, solve better problems, like helping the housing industry address rising flood risk, innovates, collaborate, help us drive changes the support sustainable, affordable housing for all. Advance your skills with a flexibility to work remotely, find tech jobs with impact at Fannie Mae dot com slash tech that's Fannie Mae dot com slash tech.