S13E10: The 80/80 Marriage w/ Nate & Kaley Kemp

00:00:01 - 00:05:07

The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves.  I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world.

hello dateable 's welcome to another episode of the dateable. Podcast a show all about the sociology of dating as we've been observing dating behaviors for years and we want to dig into the wise of people's behavior so we can get to the house of bettering people's behavior including yourself absolutely. I feel like it's always yourself. It always comes down to yourself. But i'm excited today because we're going a little past early data. We're going all the way to marriage but what's really interesting about. This episode is that it's super relatable to all stages of relationships. We definitely jake into the authors that we talked to wrote a book called the eighty marriage snead in kiwi camped. And what was interesting about it. Is i think when you're dating if you are. Your goal is marriage or committed partnership sometimes it can feel go long ways off but i think it's really good to hear the staff from people that have been through it. One of the guests kaley. She mentioned it was cut off. Like what you're about to give birth. There is the book what to expect. When you're expecting it you read it before you give birth. It is a really good analogy for dating. Because you're looking to get into a long-term committed relationship. Why not start now. I think people really just don't know what the fuck to expect. After they get married they think all of their problems will be resolved and all is good because society recognizes you as an entity together. But how you operate in a in a relationship is so dependent on you and this conversation dispels the myth that all relationships should be fifty fifty. Everybody contributes equally. And they're saying no that is not how it works from their own personal experience and from a very traumatizing experience of almost getting to that point of divorce. So i just think that this is a conversation. Anybody should be hearing even if you're not in a relationship because it preps you for what succumb if if a long term relationship is what you're looking for right. I wasn't sure looking at some staff that was interesting so from two thousand nine to two thousand. Nineteen i think typically takes a few years to get the stats. Divorces had been on the decline but also marriages have been on the decline so it kind of evens out a bit but i think people are just more conscious in general. And you know as. We're talking to kellyanne nate. They were saying they wish they had this material. When they first scotland and i think because podcast or because of just different you know more material and people coming forward with their stories. At least i want to believe. It's valuable to pave the way for more conscious relationships. That hopefully won't end in divorce because we're kind of like mentally prepping ourselves a bit. I know you never know until you're in it but at least like at least knowing that things could come down the pipeline. I think is an important first step. I don't know about you but even when we started this podcast. I thought i was well prepared for marriage thinking i got this. I'm gonna crush relationships and as we go on with our seasons the more. I feel like i don't know and not that we'll ever get to a place where we know everything it's good it's nice to be in a perspective of there's more i can learn versus all i know everything about relationships now for sure i think like i just assumed you bet someone you got married happily ever after actually. Kind of reminds me of an episode. We had last season with alice. The tongue about how her and her now ex husband were co-parenting yachting do plaques and she mentioned because they just met right in college you know she said like we didn't have any relationship education at all we just hired did it and she said if they had some of the tools maybe things would have ended a different way but by the time they got their result was too late. This is what the thought that is astounding to me. Is i read this in a book. The other day that said love is really based on ignorance so that first initial falling in love period is because you're falling in love with what you think your partner is and once you're in a relationship and you are doing all the domestic things together your revealed a someone else and your ignorance goes away so the love doesn't mean that it goes away it just shifts to a different kind of love and i think that's what hollywood does not cover.

00:05:07 - 00:10:01

That's lose love songs. Do not cover is once. The ignorance leaves. What happens when you get to know your partner. More and more touch the domestic side of relationships that i think you know i think compete little activity. They all admit. I've never lived with someone. It's definitely intimidating. I think back to even roommates. I've had in you know there were two mastic things that became tension points. And i think when you're day you think i sit a fides that checks all these box you know makes me feel good and does all the things and then you add like the extra layer of domestic side in. It's a lot of feel overwhelmed by. But i think this episode and other resources out there. I like exits mentally preparing. The i started having conversations with a partner about it about just like all things. I learned to this episode. I think having those conversations are really important even as you're like in an early stage of relationship if you're trying to get there yeah and it doesn't mean that the romance has to die so we do that in the conversation but it does mean. The reality tv affect does subside. When i mean by that is we've talked about this on this show. This is why people in the bachelor fall in love so fast. Because they're only goal is to fall in love. Their only goal is to watch their relationship progress and then they're once a pick their partner they're thrown back into reality and they have to do live together and that's why so many of them break up because they realize oh there's other shit to do other than be on a beach and sip cocktails and tell each other that we're fall in love with each other so the reality tv effect subside and the reality hits the actual reality heads and this is where we pick up the conversation fantasy over does it. Fantasy has to be boring right. It's true it's just different. It's real differential as about things. Louis interesting is look at the stats. I think you think of the reasons for divorce or going to be a money or infidelity or no substance are some of the big stuff but one of the most common which is conflict these little things. They start to build a lot of resentment. I think once you build resentment that can be the biggest danger in a relationship for sure. Yes i just met up with a couple recently. They're about to get married and they're they just bought their new house together and they just moved in for the first time together and had my friend said to me. The most surprising thing. I've found about my partner is a. He doesn't like pottery barn. And i a sounds so i don't know so minimal it you know if you are stepping back but she said. We had many fights over our taste in furniture. We never thought about before here. We are a month from getting married and we're fighting about what kind of furniture we should get in which store we should get it from ivy Shutout the because. I very particular my furniture so i feel that yes but then on the other side if you take a step back it's like it took so much effort to find this person really gonna fight about pottery barn you like. That's the part that i'm not above it. I probably the bo bay would be like what the fuck. I want this couch like. Why don't you want this also but it seems so trivial it ridiculous when you're removed from it and that's where we pick up the conversation to in this interview is what if you're the partner that's driving the relationship more. How how'd you get your partner. Step bob or to contribute or to kind of assert themselves even more. So it's all the dynamics of a relationship week uncovered in this one hour inter off which is insane. This is such a good. I'm so glad we had the bob. This show such a good one one of the questions that we talk about is how do you like discern from someone not stepping up in doing the work of lincoln being interested in being a healthy relationship versus you know just the dynamics that play out in relationships at i think even from early stages of dating the stuff comes into play like we're always hearing people say i'm doing all the work or i'm planning everything like what's the line you know of. This isn't a good situation versus know people bring different things to the table kind of thing. You've been there right julie. Oh totally totally of like that. I've been the one planning everything absolutely. And i think some of it is. I took it on myself. But then i don't know. In retrospect looking back on it too. I'm like why. I trying to force something that wasn't there. You know i think about this all the time because with my previous relationship we got into many fights that i felt like he should've planned more every trip we go on. It was my ten harari. And i would resent him while we're on the trip not enjoying our vacation because i kept thinking.

00:10:01 - 00:15:19

This is what i wanna do. How about you just pick lunch for once. But in hindsight. I kind of think about one i never communicated this till after the fact which ruined our vacation already a little little late and the second thing i was thinking about was he had other interests that i just never cared about and i wish i would have taken more time and asked him on this trip. What are the things you would be interested in seeing. And then if he said x. y. z. that it gives me the Allows me to say how about you. Plan those things right well. I think it's hard because it's your birgit to people that have very different ways of living. And you know it's one of those things that you think about it. Let's say you do meet in your thirties or forties. This person has had thirty years plus of life experience before you. They've had this whole life. Yeah you're not part of it. It's actually kind of kind of better. What do you think about dick as you're like. You were a functioning person before be. I don't need to do all the staff yet. I think when. I've stepped into the planner role. There's a few things like wine. I have trouble relinquishing control. That i learned about myself but then the other side is i took it very personally like this person donna. You know make a reservation. Because i'm not important enough to them. And i've learned over the years that it doesn't always mean that like that's like reading a lot into it people show love and different ways it just because that's something that i do doesn't mean that that's how someone why needs to be loved also that also what they're gonna reciprocate but then you know that's the line though. Is we hear all these people all the time that are in these relationships or situation ships where they're doing all the work and that's that's not a good rule to be an either. I just always think about this image of a couple. And let's say one person is doing all the trip planning and resenting their partner and their partner is like scrubbing the kitchen resenting their partner for not helping cleave with both people feel like they're right you know thinking what they're doing is so important. Why is my partner contributing. That is what a true relationship is it. All comes down to communication. I mean we say it's so cliche we say it all the time. I think when we start to bottle the stuff up even if you're in an early stage relationship a feels like you're the one text all time. Maybe it's that they're not that into epa. Maybe it's just that you're doing it all so they don't feel like you want them to do it or they need to do it. There are so many reasons. I think we're so afraid to have those conversations because we're afraid we're going to get the answer. We don't want a lot of times. But i think there's only upside because i mean you know. Worst case scenario is someone says. I'm not that into you. But when she rather than ever now than months and months down the road and best cases they are aware of what. You'd like hard a cigarette. I think i've definitely learned that. I used to hardest so much. That is new or the worst. It's a very lonely place because you're only talking to yourself and it's so unfair to your partner to super unfair to that when you think about it yes. This is very much related to our question for this episode. Someone wrote in and said i just started seeing someone. It's been about a few dates in. And i feel like i'm constantly planning dave. How do i get her to plan more of the dates back. Well this is what we've been talking about communicating what you want out of the relationship even in early stages of dating. You cannot expect the person you're dating to read your mind or to act the way you do. My mom always says to me. You can't expect other people to be you 'cause you only you know what you want. They don't know so. I think it's very important to communicate. That what i really appreciate about a partner is someone who plans things takes initiative in planning things. I think it's also helpful to sit back and think have. I even allowed this person to plan things. I know some friends who are very adamant about going to certain restaurants doing certain things getting tickets for certain events and then their partner or date is just along for the ride. Otherwise is not a good date so relinquishing that control is another way of thinking Have i even allowed this person to take initiative. I think it's how do you make it more collaborative my partner and i. We have a running list of things. We wanna do on cuco keep. It's just a list of activities or restaurants or beaches hikes. Whatever it is and that's just there we just add to it as we come up with things even if we're talking to each other will add things and then we can refer to it and it doesn't feel like one person's planning it that way it just feels like it's more of a collaborative nature and i'm also not keeping track like am i putting eighty percent of the things on here is he putting eighty percent of Taking about that way it's more of here is our list of running things we wanna do and you know we have this at our disposal while we're looking for something to do i so i think that's been really great but i think also another way.

00:15:19 - 00:20:02

Is you kind of alluded to earlier. How do you ask them what they watch like even saying. Hey i know you're into music. I would love to join you on a concert that you really like. That would be really fun to me. I think one it shows that you're invested in the relationship that you want to partake in their activities and then also it invites them to plan something they know you want to come to it Yes i've also heard this. Oh actually before. I get to my thought. My question to you julius. How do you and your partner prioritize which things to do i. It's kind of in the moment like every weekend will be like what are we feel like doing will look at the list. And we'll see what jumps out honestly. It hasn't been much of a production or conversation. It's just been very natural but i- depending on the relationship may be that would be more challenging. I think both pretty back of what we do. But i would say if people have really strong opinions on some. Maybe there's a way to star the ones that you really really want to do so. You can prioritize accordingly alternate. Maybe it's i've also done like all plan a weekend go. I remember when his friends were in town. I was like. I wanna take you out in plan a weekend because i did all the stuff with you and your friends that you planned invited me to and took meet new so i think that's a really good way to kind of balance it too is. It's it was kind of fun. I'm like abdu a surprise night for you. And i can make it more of an adventure to in a gift to your partner. It's not as like. Oh my god. Here i go plan android again. You know it's all about the mindset there too. Yes that's so much fun to collaboration is the key to a relationship and that's so fun to bring the planning together. Feel like. It's tit for tat. Like i planned this and then you plan that i was going to offer a piece of perspective from the person who is doing less of the planning. I've been in that position to if i feel extreme anxiety and pressure being around someone who's constantly doing all the planning who beats me to it and i feel like i'm just trying to take a breath before i even think about doing next and you've already thought about that next step so just you know. Maybe that's just something for you to think about. If you are the planner your partner may feel a pressure to. That's a really good point. I definitely have friends that are more type a. With planning than i am being run translations for months from now you would think about next weekend so think talking to your partner but how do you operate is really important because it could just be that you both operate very differently and that may not be a bad thing. Maybe one person is more planner. Because that's you know that's important to them. And i think also just to offer another perspective too. I remember this guy and he planned everything. Always what restaurant you want to go to you first. I thought it was really great. Because i was like. That's so assertive. And i really liked that but then i realized that when i wanted to do something it was only on his schedule and i quickly realized that someone being the driver is not as important to me as i once thought i think with other partners at having been that way honestly at hasn't bothered me as much because they have been just more easygoing about what we do in has been like my way or the highway type of thing and i think sometimes it it's it's easy and early stage dating get caught up in especially with gender roles. The man plans all the dates. And that's how they show that really into you. But i think you also have to think about like. Is this the relationship. I want long-term. Yes that's a very good point. I've been there too. I've deadly and you realize you're just there to fill a spot off right. Yeah it's what they won't do. They just wanna companion to be along for the ride so i definitely been there but this is a really great way to just wrap up this question. Which is you have to communicate with your partner. How do we want to operate as an entity together. That's very important and if we're talking about planning here who's better at planning so you can figure out where your strengths are. And then how do you want your partner to contribute to. The planning is also very important. Take into account their interests. I think knowing yourself also because when we were just saying that. I didn't like being along for the ride. Baby there is someone out there that does yeah. I think it is all about knowing yourself and what is going to work for you. In addition to what you just said yes. Yes cool okay.

00:20:02 - 00:25:13

Well let's go into some announcements. We don't wanna keep this going to log because we have such a good episode in store Quick announcements we have facebook group. Love in the time of corona. We are still colleague that because we are still indeed in the time occur. Yes we are so one day we will change the name but not yet so love in the time of corona by the debatable. Podcast stats the facebook group at dateable. Podcast on instagram can always check us out on youtube. If you're curious about our recording insist and he just want to see our faces you could always go to. Youtube will occasionally be doing. Youtube lives to we answer dating questions so you can replay the one. We did a couple of weeks ago that you can listen to on there so definitely out youtube. If you haven't already any other announcements we can think of how a friend you know especially in this episode. Share this with a friend. We've said this a billion times but even if you are so single right now single af you should be sharing this with a friend because unless of course you don't wanna be married or in a long term commited relationship than you. Do you like a lot of the people that are listening to this. Podcast eventually wanna find their person and settle into more domestic bliss. So i think if that is something that you aspire to. This episode is so thought provoking. I know for me in like a semi new relationship. I don't know what constitutes is new. I guess under a year. I'll call it a new relationship. But i think like you know we are on a serious track. So it's like. I need to think about stuff even six months into a relationship so i think regardless of where you are. This is really really good food for thought in this episode so share it with a friend who needs it. Sharing is caring. Okay let's do a few quick message from our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by pros. 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Dateable join over one million people who have taken charge of their mental health again. That's better help. H. e. l. p. dot com slash dat ab l. e. Okay let's get into the eighty. Eighty marriage with nate in keighley. How do you have a successful relationship or marriage. Nobody knows these days because the model for a successful relationship keeps changing with our society and we no longer can look to our parents to say this is what makes a marriage work because fifty percent of our parents are also divorced so this is very interesting. That we have. Nate clamp and kaley clamp on the phone with us. Today who wrote a book called the eighty eighty marriage a new model for happier stronger relationships. They live in boulder. They've been there for nine years. I'm from collins of were fellow. Colorado ends here. They're both forty two years old. They're married to each other right. Just want to confirm and what is it. Eighty eighty model relationships while in particular exploring how to use a mindset shift to radical generosity and the structural shift to shared success as you transition from dating to the early stages of intimate relationship.

00:25:13 - 00:30:04

We are so excited to have you at. The book was also definitely excited to dig in deeper on this episode with you all awesome so so excited to be here. You're ut this up so beautifully that eighty eighty is really about letting go of the old model said. Our parents had about what relationships might look like and instead saying as we're going into relationships now we know that we are equals with each other and we want to create a relationship where it feels like we're equals and in love and previously the very best that we could do was the technology of fairness. Let's make sure that we're equals by making things super fair fifty fifty exactly the same and the problem was that created so much for us to fight about. I was when he picked up dinner last time. It's your turn. I was in hugh planned are cool date last time. Now it's your turn keeping tabs exactly and so this keeping score with such an issue and so eighty eighty is all about dropping keeping score shifting your mindset to that of radical generosity where you're contributing appreciating and revealing to each other and from that place you're able to create a structure of shared success which really just means you know your values which means you can identify your priorities set clear boundaries. Identify your roles imbalanced power which interestingly leads to really great sex well fake. That's really interesting. Because i feel like we keep hearing in modern culture that we want to strive for equality and i know you just touched on this a bit but why do you think this is flawed. Like this motion of equality. Yeah well. I actually think there's a really important distinction here between equality and fairness and so as kayla was mentioned earlier we are all about equality in marriage and i think like we're living in the generation that's all about equality in marriage in contrast to our grandparents who had very different structures. Even our parents may have had very different structures. So i think the key question couples are asking now is how can we be equals and in love without killing each other. Essentially and the reason we're killing each is because of this berry. Clunky technology of fairness that kayla was talking about a minute ago. This idea that the way we get equality is by creating this like the world's biggest spreadsheet ever that track each person's contributions across different domains and run some sort of like incredibly sophisticated algorithm in the background. That tells us win. Things are exactly fair and when they're not and when they're not gonna fight with each other so laying that's kind of the the mindset that i think many couples have going into that transition from dating to a more serious relationship was definitely our mindset so the whole idea of eighty is how can we be equals reverting to that sort of habitual pattern of fairness and so some of the technologies include that mindset shifts to radical generosity so instead of keeping score were focused on appreciating doing radically generous contribution which turns out to be contagious and gives us more of what we actually wanted in the first place. But but yeah. I think the real problem is that really murky distinction between equality and fairness innate. You touched upon this to as value experiences in your own marriage. And i'm guessing that's what inspired you to write this book. I i feel like this notion of fairness is also very subjective. And i hear in my parents relationship. My mom's like what's fair is that i cook and he cleans in my dad's is he's like you cook and do the yard work. And that's fair. So can you cut a tell us about what was it that inspired you to come up with this eighty notion. I love the story of your parents because fairness doesn't actually exist and that's one of the reasons that people end up fighting about it so much is one. Our definitions are totally different. So what actually equals fairness but also our metrics are completely broken and part of this is is availability bias. Which is the psychologist. Fancy way of saying. I know one hundred percent of the things that i do and i know very little of what you do so i am highly aware of how much time and attention i put into making sure that when we were hanging out with our families it was awesome. I have very little awareness. Of how horrible was the yard that you just cleaned up and reiko and so there's this sense of what i did was hard and what you did was easy. And so what. I encounter more and i should get credit for it and so again.

00:30:04 - 00:35:00

We're fighting for something that doesn't even exist and it was. It was funny as part of this book. We did about one hundred interviews and if we asked people the question do you ever fight about fairness they would say not really and then they would go on to tell us all of these stories of them fighting about fairness completely unfair. That i'm the one who always puts the cap on the toothpaste right or it's totally unfair that i cook these beautiful meals and when it's his turn we go for pizza So what did you guys run into. What was it that you know inspired the shift that you looked at your own marriage. Yeah well we had quite an interesting transition from dating to a more serious relationship. Which i assume is pretty much ubiquitous. It's never a very clean and easy transition but for us we had been dating long distance and we first met in high school plaza. We dated a little bit then. Then we broke up and seven years later. We got back together. At that point. We were long distance for a year so was like this magical experience. In every time. I saw kelly. I thought she walked on water and she thought the same about me and then we decided to move in together. Kaley had a condo. And i moved in and it was like a week or two into that that we just hit the wall of fairness and actually start the book on this story where i used to walk into this condo and i would just like kick off my shoes and leave them in a pile and war and so kaley actually hit my shoes in like one of those cabinets above the refrigerator that nobody ever uses bike that was first baroness bites of what what are you doing. Why did you hide my shoes perspective. Here i was just leaving my crap everywhere but it was really interesting that we had no idea all of the structural things that we were gonna need to think about and all the changes that we're gonna happen just from that transition to from like long distance dating where everything was magical and we'd meet up at a hotel to like all of a sudden we're living together Okay so i think this is something. I definitely related to as i read this book. I am in a newer relationship less than a year. I've never live with someone before. And i think a lot of our listeners might be in the same boat or even just an early stage dating. i think. Sometimes it's hard to imagine that it will go to that place where we're kind of fighting over all these mundane type things and i think a lot of people that haven't even met their person yet wanna think they're differential in a way it's like i've spent all this time trying to find this person. Now i'm just gonna fight about shoes. Is this inevitable or is there a way that couples can get out this. Is this a little scary to me. I'll be completely honest. I think in some ways we wrote this book as a gift to our past selves. And what we hope is to a new generation of people who are entering dating that had we had any of the tools around. How do you reveal in a way. That's thoughtful and caring so that you don't end up fighting or doing things that are passive aggressive around things as ridiculous as shoes. I think that also holding more space for appreciation for one another which again in the early days of dating. I think there can be this magical experience of. You're so awesome. And i tell you all the time and then sometimes we miss those details of each other that i wanna be appreciative for and so had we had eighty eighty. When we were dating. I would love to believe that i never would have hidden each shoes. That's i guess that's a good transition going into like really what eighty means because like i would love. I would love this idealistic state that i preserve however feeling today for the rest of my life right. Yeah absolutely well. There's really two pieces to it. So one of it is a shift in mindset and one of the pieces is about the structure of your life so if you look at the mindset piece it's really this shift from that default habit of fifty fifty fairness thinking leads us to keep score to alternative mindset of radical generosity were the ideas instead of just striving for fifty percent contribution to the relationship we strive for eighty percent and that makes no sense. The math doesn't add up. We're well aware that in some ways that's the whole point because it turns out that from the perspective of fairness generosity is actually irrational generosity. Doesn't make any sense. So when you're anchored in that fairness perspective it becomes very limited and it leads to all sorts of conflict so making that shift to generosity is sort of step one and there's a few different pieces to that so one of them is just these small micro actions of contribution so we think in relationships that contribution needs to be some huge thing like planning a trip to bali and like.

00:35:00 - 00:40:03

Wow kelly is going to be so excited about that but it turns out that what's actually more important. Are those little micro actions leaving post it note on her computer monitor. That says i love you. You know taking her car to fill it up with gas. Sounds so mundane. It can be huge. The second piece is about appreciation which kaley talked about a moment ago which is really just like instead of scanning your partner for everything. They're doing wrong and all the ways in which they didn't quite measure up you're looking for the things they did right and when you see that appreciating them and then there's one other piece which is really about. Can you reveal your full truth in the relationship and revealing is about revealing. Hey what's really going on with me at work in life emotionally but it's also about like all those little microscopic ruptures in connection that happen when i feel pissed off that kaley nagged me about not unloading the dishwasher or whatever that might be. It's it's just revealing that so that instead of pulling us further apart it brings us closer together and it gives you permission for each other to give that extra thirty percent in a relationship and to share that extra thirty percent. But i know we have some very quantitative based listeners. We're thinking how do you know you've been giving eighty percent versus sixty five percent or seventy percent. How do you know when you hit the eighty percent. You don't which is in days if the point that the whole thier is. Can you stop scorekeeping nineties. You could do it where it actually becomes the exact same problem i just gave eighty percent. You were only at seventy two is exactly this ryan argument as fighting for fifty fifty. So the whole idea is can i over shoot. Can i do more. I would add a bit of a caveat here which i think is really neat early in relationships which is around what matters to you to receive. Because if you're going to go above and beyond might as well have it land in the other person's world as something fantastic that they've really cherish. Where as a for instance early on nate. We got me flowers and it was amazing. Allegedly except i am so good at killing living things. They can't speak these gorgeous. Flowers will be for one day. That i just feel bad about myself whereas if he could plan something for us to do together even if it was free that meant the world to me and soon finding ways if you're going to do that extra thirty percent or if you're gonna stop keeping score. Can you do something that really feels. Delightful to the person that you're doing it for its honing in on lovely guages from sherman. Yes and what have hearing to is. It's like how do we appreciate the part of the relationship that you know. Meet us attracted to this person in the first place. Not if they've done the dishes or they've done some other kind of household type thing in than that stuff also is going to come into play. But how can we start to appreciate the stuff that made us fall in love in the first place. Yeah absolutely and one thing. I'll say that. I think is really important. Is i think a lot of people when they first hear this idea of radical generosity. It sounds like this kind of fantasy land. That's almost delusional gray. Tia could never actually work. Because many of us are psychology is locked in this perspective of fairness. And one thing that i think is important to to know about this is that there's a way in which your mindset in relationships is contagious and that applies if you're in that fifty fifty mindset of fairness but it also applies if you're in the eighty eighty mindset of radical generosity. This actually works in tangible fashion. Is that win. You do that shift to radical generosity. There's a contagious way in which your partner starts to pick up on that and your your own Dissolved by your partners. Resentment starts to dissolve and that's the way it actually shifts. The culture of the relationship is through that sort of contagious nature of mindset. Ideally right but there could be a relationship where the other partner just keeps taking taking and taking and that's when you know you should probably get out of that relationship. I assume or is there a way to turn it around. I guess that's the question right. It could be either one so if you're in a relationship where it feels like you are being taken advantage of or where it feels like you've tried to have the conversation and it's not shifting. That might be a moment where you say. Perhaps this isn't a person with whom. I'm going to take that next step if however you are already committed or you're really interested in stretching yourself in growing it's a great inquiry to wonder. How am i setting it up. So i'm the person who's doing it all and it's in some ways difficult.

00:40:03 - 00:45:00

Look in the mirror. I was that person where i was doing everything and then i would just resent nate and i got a little adrenaline boost of. I'm responsible and i do everything. You're such a slacker. And i was mad. And i complained and i also was controlling and seated no responsibility and so with that trick. You look in the mirror. I could see. I've set it up this way. Yes yes what am i. Willing to risk to have nate. Be the partner that i'm most what i can really relate to that because i think i've bid that person in past relationships an ivy guy even said to you a like i think it comes down to trust like i don't trust people in you like have that sense of control and it's been like a work to try to relinquish that trust. I've definitely seen a show up different in my current relationship. Like how do people start to like relinquish control. And is i think part of it's like if i don't do it. What if it doesn't happen at all in my expectations are met. I would encourage folks who relate. You need to start with things. That aren't the end of the world. So i might start with something where i say it's okay if the meal isn't perfect or it's okay if the date is great and not amazing or it's okay if whatever. It is isn't exactly the way that i would do it. If it were me i wouldn't start with. You know it's okay if we just don't show up to babysit my niece other things for the consequences of it not working out well our livable. But i think the other piece. That's really challenging. If you're in that controlling mentality is sometimes we also forget to give our partner enough tools to do it. Well so as a for instance. I controlled all of our finances for the first gosh nate ten years of our relationship and the guy we get so mad that he would spend in ways that i thought were irresponsible but i also gave him no insight into our finances so it was completely unfair complaint. Only when i showed him how to do all the things that i was doing in gave him access to all of the things that i was looking at which was to your point requiring that i trusted a lot more. Could he actually shift his behavior and show up the way i wanted. So how do we take this into more of a domestic situation. I'm just thinking about something as mundane as taking out the trash or doing the dishes or doing the grocery shopping. If i feel like i want my partner to also help with these things. Do i give him that information and say these are things that would make our relationship better or do you. If you're the one wanting to do these things you just do it and have your partner step up in other ways. Well this is where i think. Having a conversation about the structure of your life together is super important. You can be radically generous all day and end up in that pattern. You were talking about you where you end up doing everything and that's really not a good place for you and it's probably not a good place for your partner to be so there's also a conversation here about how're we setting up our lives together. Which interestingly isn't really an interesting conversation or a necessary conversation when you're dating when you're dating structure is like who's going to call who or whose tax on friday night it's like all these really fun exciting questions and then you move in together. And all of a sudden the scope of these structural issues expands and so for us one of the key structural pieces that changed. Everything turned out to be super simple. We sat down one day and we rode out all of our roles and responsibilities in our marriage together so kelly had her list. I had my list and it wasn't to see like is this fair. It was more to see. Is this working for us. And our even clear on. Who's doing what a lot of couples did all these interviews and we'd ask. How did you decide who does what. How did you come up with structure of roles and almost every couple. We talked to said hat or no. We just wait it. We started to call that the wig approach where the idea is. Hey let's let nineteen fifties gender norms and historical accident determined. And that's a really bad system. Leads generally to the woman in the relationship and heterosexual relationship during more so literally. You can write out your roles and then you have the opportunity. Which kellyanne i did to think. Hey let's come up with a new structure that fits what. We're good at what we like to do. That gives us actual clarity around.

00:45:00 - 00:50:03

Who does what and for us was in total game. Changer a okay. Let's hold that thought for a few quick messages. This episode is made possible by hellofresh with hellofresh. You get fresh premeasured ingredients and seasonal recipes delivered right to your doorstep with a subscription ingredients travel from the farm to your door with a week so you get the convenience without skimping on the quality hellofresh offers fifty menu and market items. Choose from every week including vegetarian calorie smart and gourmet options providing plenty of variety. My mom and i have really bonded over some great fall. Dishes is the perfect way to welcome the holiday season without the headache and the time wasted and all the prep-work and now i can finally whip up something that my mom is impressed by. Here's a sweet offer. For all of you go to hellofresh dot com slash dateable fourteen and use the code. Dateable fourteen for up to fourteen free meals including free shipping again go to hellofresh dot com slash dateable fourteen and use the code dateable fourteen for up to fourteen free meals including free shipping hellofresh. America's number one meal kit. Have you ever thought about how much better dating would be if you had a whole army of people supporting you. Along the way we know that aiding can be frustrating and lowly but it can also feel fulfilling and fun. Have recently decided. You wanna make some changes to your love life. Maybe you've recently enter the dating scene. Maybe you've gone on one too. Many dates i went nowhere. Or maybe you're just ready to take your current relationships to the next level. That is exactly why we created the board a true extension of our podcast that delivers a personalized experience. Which includes monthly office. Hours where you can drop in and chat with us about anything weekly sound off with guided discussions and regular virtual happy hours. Allow julian i to become your dating sherpas to provide real time guidance and wisdom in a more intimate way so we can all navigate dating and relationships together. Join the sounding board today by going to dateable podcast dot com slash sounding board again. That's dateable podcast dot com slash sounding board kick. You did a really great job in the book like a kind of the history of the evolution marriage and you hit on it. This eighty twenty. Which was the more traditional gender roles what our parents generation was you in a in a marriage. I definitely see this. My parents like my mom. Does the more domestic tasks owns the household then. My dad is the primary breadwinner like from a work perspective. But obviously because of shifted with women's equality in the fifty fifty worlds was more like separating it so where do you see the future with. Add with roles and responsibilities. Gonna you just mentioned a little about doing what works for you. But how do you see that playing out. I think that belief is if you are able to look at all of the things that you're up to as a couple and then so lax year rolls based on what you're good at and what you care about and then make some choices where. I don't know that anybody's like you know what. I'm so good at taking out the trash but being willing to say hey. It really bothers me when the trash cans to get to the top. I'm gonna own because it bothers me so much more than it bothers you and being willing to have the conversation from that perspective what it allows choice it allows intentionally also around things that you might say. We want to outsource that. Then it's not important to either of us. Can we make some decisions to either. Not do it at all or to outsource it. And just having the conversation as i look into the future when i imagine is complementarity rather than fighting over. What needs to be done. I am so on board with this. But i'm also very curious to because julie's aware that at the beginning of the pandemic when my boyfriend i accidentally moved in together like lots of couples. Did we had a lot of conflicts in the beginning. Because i think there's a there's this notion were assumption that when you live together you contribute to the same tasks so for him. He felt like well if he's getting the groceries that i would just voluntarily want to hop on this grocery train and say let me help get more groceries. Do you believe. And i'm sure it's different for all relationships but do you believe. In general couples should have clearly defined roles and responsibilities where they don't share these responsibilities so you know exactly what you're doing from day to day. I think there is so much value in clarity and becoming more conscious about. Who's doing what so. In some ways. I think the biggest shift you can make on. All levels in a relationship is going from unconscious unintentional chaotic to conscious structured clear. And so it doesn't necessarily lead to okay.

00:50:03 - 00:55:14

Well now you need to have two completely different lists of roles and responsibilities and there should be no shared roles in the household. I don't think that's the conclusion here. I think the primary conclusion is the clear. It is the more both people are aware of what the structure actually looks like the less. You're gonna fight about it and then you get to decide. Do we want to share certain things so kalian. I have a number of shared roles. You know sometimes she makes dinner. Sometimes i make dinner. Sometimes she takes our daughter to school. Sometimes i do and we actually like that because those are both things that we enjoy doing but there are other things where it's it's a clearly defined mate role so i am the trash guy. I think i did this morning every tuesday morning. That's just my job. If kelly started taking the trash out. I would actually be really confused concern that i woke up in some bizarre universe or something. I think that's really the key. And then the other thing to think about is with all these structural pieces around finances and roles and and priorities that they change and q. Just do this once you move in together during kovic and you're like okay. Let's define our roles for the next hundred years. It's more like hey let's define our roles for now and then who knows what's going to happen. Maybe you move to a different home. And you've got all sorts of new things to worry about you pool to clean or a hot tub cry or it is so it's an ongoing dynamic process right so okay so this is like more back to like the nineteen twenties type view eighty twenty but it was based on your bread-winning great like the men didn't do the household because they were the one that made more money in today's world. That could be either partner. Do you view that there is still an association with work and income. That correlates to home or do you view those as two separate things. Interestingly what we found goes hand in hand with money is if you're not intentional about it that can very easily lead to power dynamics in your relationship so it's not necessarily that the power shows up around who's gonna do the domestic tasks or who's gonna take care of the child but rather it becomes if you're not mindful about balancing the power. The person who earns more money often unconsciously feel like they get an extra vote so we learned from couples in our interviews. Things like i decide where we go on vacation. Because it's really my money and and it would come out sideways. Where the person's like. Oh it's your vacation. Is it in so passive aggressiveness. Started to occur and what we really encourage in. Eighty eighty is noticing where power is showing up in balanced in your relationship and using structure as a tool to help bring it into balance so sometimes that looks with money like a budget. Sometimes that looks like how you do independent pots of money versus shared pots of money. If it's around domestic labour it might also be around these roles and responsibilities if it's around sacks you might use structure around the use setup deep night or are there different hues that you use with one another so that you balanced drive but it's really about power that you want to pay attention So i could hear like the people that are dating and super single. This is a little. Daunting is what i'm signing up for. Is there ways that we can kind of. Get ahead of this and early stage meeting and start to apply these kind of methodologies early on one i guess to cut a set up this. Adhd mentality then also that if your partner has the capacity to do something like this. Yeah i love that question and kaley were talking earlier. About how in some ways building a relationship is like building a company and you that early stage where it's all just an idea and you can just dream big and it's all possibility and laugh. Wow what if we changed the world with this thing and you don't have to worry about setting up a jar yourself from litigation investment banker to acquire a company. It's just so simple. And so i think the same is true of a relationship where you start dating phase and it's it can be very magical and you actually don't wanna think about. All the structural stops there was like an aversion to. Because it's not very fun and interesting. But i think it's worth thinking about especially as you start to make that transition towards something more serious so not even marriage but just like you're starting to transition from casual dating to. Hey i might actually want to build something with this person. They're just a couple tools that you might want to start working with so one is just this mindset that we've been talking about radical generosity but another is really starting to explore what we call in the book revealing which is as i said before it's the ability to reveal your full truth the good the bad and you know i know from my experiences of dating.

00:55:14 - 01:00:04

This was like one of the biggest barriers to having a successful relationship. Babies usually me having some issue with the person. I was dating. You know. maybe they showed up five minutes late or didn't like their phone hygiene or something like that. And i never told them about it and instead i was like well you know. I can't date someone who's five minutes late. Bryce isn't gonna work. You set your own rules and then you think there's someone perfect out there that won't have any of the truth is i wasn't revealing that i have a really clear preference for having you there on time or whatever it is so that revealing piece i think is is just key without developing that muscle and that skill in a relationship. It's probably never going to go beyond dating. I would say what do you think about since. We're talking about early stage dating. How do we set the tone for revealing and basically setting boundaries in some ways and talking about your needs without stripping the romance out of a relationship. Or how do you infuse of romance back once you start having these conversations. I think it's finding the other side of revealing because what nate's describing is essential being able to name with your partner the teeny tiny things that if they go unspoken could actually drive you apart but the other side of revealing is knowing each other more deeply and there's something really intimate and really attractive about getting to know someone at that next level and so this could be anything from. What's something that you dream about that you were. You may never get to experience. In in that conversation you got fears and vulnerability and dreams altogether and that closeness is really powerful and so using revealing as a space where it's actually quite intimate that i think starts to make sure that it doesn't become now. I'm going to nitpick you but rather here's who i really am. And who are you. So it's a combination of. Hey i really do not like dirty socks on the floor to my dream vacation. Let's start working towards that. So you've gotta balance the domestic with the sexy dreams. I think there's also a way of revealing that will lead to a helpful response by your partner and a way of revealing. That will lead to an unhelpful response and really has to do with your motivation or the sort of underlying energy of the reveal so it comes purely from resentment anger and and a place of criticism. Your partner is going to mirror that back to you whereas if you can do this kind of jedi mind trick and you can reveal your complaints from a place of radical generosity. Which i know sounds crazy but it's possible. I do it all the time win. You're able to do that all of a sudden you get a very different response because it's coming from a place of. Hey i love you. I want this to work and when you leave your socks in front of my drawers is just. It's really hard for me. I feel really frustrated. Yeah the example. That just happened. That i thought was so powerful is with a couple and they had really different preferences about what happened with the phone at dinner and partner. One said that they were like w with your phone. Surprisingly the partners like f you with your phone and instead i was like all right. Let's try this conversation again. Why does this matter to you and the person said anytime. Your phone comes out. It feels like. I'm not important to you because so little time where it's just the two of us. I want you to be the most important person in my world in that moment. And i want to be the most important person in your world in that moment. Totally different conversation with totally different results. Yeah i love that like thinking that your partner has your best interests than they are. They are because they love you and they want to be there. I think that's a good way to lead. I guess where. I struggle a little especially with early stage. I'm going to go back. Here is sometimes at that stage. You don't know where you stand with someone. So how can you lead with generosity and want to assume the best resources you know. Set yourself up for a bad situation. How do you balance the two. It's a great question. And i think early stage in some ways. What you're noticing is how does your partner meet you and how does your partner reciprocate that. You take a little risk in a little risk in a little risk and as your partner takes a little risk in a little risk right back with hugh you start to build something. That's really special. When wouldn't necessarily recommend. Is you go reveal your darkest secret and then what did you think of that.

01:00:05 - 01:05:01

There's sort of a time of great entrust building that you've talked about a lot that helps you create a foundation so that you can keep revealing the things that are really important to you. The other thing that you could consider is in the book. We have an exercise around values. And there's a place where whether it's early in your relationship if you're wanting to make sure that you don't waste your time or if it's at an inflection point in your relationship where you're starting to feel like this could get more serious a conversation. About what values do you have for. Whatever chapter you're in it. How will you know that you are winning the game of serious dating. Or how will you know that you're winning the game of life together in whatever that means for you and there's not of right or wrong answer that some people will say well. No that were winning. If our life is characterized by adventure and love and they might choose to go on amazing trips together and others might say. We'll know that were winning if we're able to support the other person pursuing a professional dream and it's really that that springboard of support for them to go to that. Those relationships might look really different and those values might point them in different directions. Equally valid is just worth a conversation. And that's a really great one for the where do we stand and are we aligned inflection. Point makes a lotta sense. I'm really impressed that this conversation can span every phase of a relationship. If you couldn't tell by now julian. I are both in relationships that are different phases. So we've got the early stage. And then i'm sort of like in the three years in with hiding the shoes and you know the mundane things that julie's afraid to get into but something i do want to bring up is i was reading feedback about your book and some the reviews and this is what i find very fascinating is that it's a self selecting process of the people who pick up your book because it's people who are already frustrated in their relationships so someone said this they said the frustrating thing about this book is at the partner who is frustrated with the division of labor in a marriage will read it and the other one won't but i think it applies it to almost all relationship books. This person who really needs to read it probably won't what would you say to the people who are thinking this because they've already built up that resentment and this book probably makes them feel like i just need to throw this book at my partner and make them read it. It's a great question and this turned out to be one of the most fundamental questions we asked ourselves. When we're writing this book. We ended up writing an entire chapter on. It called the reluctant partner chapter. Because in some ways this is the fundamental problem of a book like this or the fundamental challenge of writing a book like this. Is that your as you said a lot of people who buy this book. They're looking to enhance their relationship. They're likely the over contributor. They're likely more interested in changing the relationship. And so the question becomes then. If you are that over contributing partner how do you motivate the under- contributing reluctant partner and in some ways as kelly mentioned before this was our story she was the over contributing partner. I was the more reluctant partner who kind of had a rate because she was doing everything and so then the question becomes okay. Well how do you solve that problem. And i think there are a few things. First of all there is that principle that i laid out earlier. That your mindset is contagious. So i think step one is to really look at your mindset. 'cause you may say while i already do eighty percent but chances are you're doing eighty percent out of a mindset of this isn't fair and there's a lot of resentment that's that's around that so the first step is to just take that really close look at mindset and start running some little experiments in your life where you do that thing. You always do that. Pisses you off but you see if you can shift to. Hey this is a gift to us as a couple and i know that sounds very difficult. But if you're able to do that all the sudden you might notice some subtle changes in the way you interact together. But then i think it's also fair to bring in this practice of revealing and to start having some of these harder conversations you know if you're the one who does everything it's fair to reveal that and to say you know. Hey as a gift to our relationship. I'd like for you to do this practice with me on clarifying roles together or like you to sit down with me and let's talk through our values together. It is totally unfair. That you're the one who's having to initiate that and it's totally unfair that you're having to push your partner into that and yet that's how this might start to unwind. The pattern is taking that initiative in taking the risk. Really so i guess like from your own personal stories. Then it'd be nate. I like how has this.

01:05:01 - 01:10:09

Better relationship overall. How is this kind of push you to be that next level version in keighley. I would ask you the same. I love that question will for me. I was this reluctant partner. We got married at twenty six. I was living in a graduate student. Dorm kaley had an actual career as a consultant and owned her own condo. So we were coming into this at very different stages of life you might say. Even though the we're the same age and one of the things that was really interesting about my experiences. You might think that the reluctant under contributing partner has it made because here the other partner is doing everything but actually my experience was. It was incredibly painful to be the one relationship who was the problem. Who is the slacker. Who is lazy. Who has never doing enough like when you take that. On as an identity. That's actually incredibly painful. So once we started to have some of these conversations and this really spans about fifteen years so it wasn't like there is a moment but the more we started to get clear on our roles and our priorities on our values and the more restarted to shift our mindset away from fairness and just establish these clear structures. I felt like i was more empowered to be the partner that kaley wanted to be an actual equal in our relationship. And i feel like that you know the benefit has been amazing. It really feels like we are a team in every way and we sort of us against the world and it just feels like total collaboration. I mean we're able to write a book and promote a book together which is not an easy thing to do as married couple but it was actually like really fun and there is very little drama involved in the process. I agree in many respects. With what nate was saying for me. Mindset is necessary but in some ways insufficient that for me. The greatest change was being able to be crystal clear on what our family values are so that now. There's so much more clarity about what i say. Yes to and what. I say no to because i'm not asking anymore. What is best for me. I'm asking what's best for us. And the answer is different. And so lou. Greatest benefit is what nate was describing at the end that we feel like a team and not a team where there is sort of the ball hog around whose turn is it to dunk but rather truly a team around empowering the other person to be their best beautifully put avid. I take that you guys believe that couples come back from you know this mentality of score keeping an all that what some advice that you would have maybe for two groups of people maybe if you will in relationships that are kinda going through this. Current day is tit for tat mentality in the navy. The group also. That fear is going to this. Yeah well i think we are an example that this is possible because we were really stuck. I mean we were right on the verge of divorce. It's kind of like a miracle that we didn't get divorced but we were able to dig our way out of that and it was really about changing the underlying habits and behaviors of how we related to each other in all these things so when it comes to the group of people in relationships and what they can do. I think a good starting point is to really look at two habits. Which we've talked about one is one radically generous active contribution each day. Which again doesn't have to be huge. Could just be a very small thing. It could just be you make dinner for your partner or you make them a cup of coffee in the morning or you know you. You pick up their jacket that they left on the floor or whatever it is but just doing that one thing can have a really profound effect and then the other is that appreciation mindset shift. Where if you can appreciate your partner once a day and flip around those glasses that you wear when you're watching your partner from everything. They did wrong to everything they did. Right that's another thing that's really powerful and for us we do. This actually is a kind of ritual before we go to bed. We each appreciate each other for one thing. It takes like sixty seconds maybe ninety seconds but it totally changes the energy of the day and it brings us into connection right before we go to sleep so that would be for the establish relationship folks and then for the who are like. I don't know if i want to do this. I would say is we've talked a lot about structure and mindset and finances and power and all these kind of more boring all say structural pieces but one of the things we haven't talked about is the reward on the other side of that right. Which is that when you are deeply connected with somebody when you feel like you are absolutely on the same team. I mean it's it's a unique human experience to feel that close and that connected can often show up in the bedroom so we like to say that through mindset and structure you can create outrageously good sex and i think that's absolutely true because the thing that's keeping many couples from having amazing sex especially after everything's new not living together and it's like oh my god.

01:10:09 - 01:15:08

I see this person every day at all hours of the day. The thing they they can make sex. Amazing is connection and you can get that through mindset instructor. Love that while. This is such a fascinating conversation. I think for anyone at any stage from relationship. I definitely would couple takeaways at all kick off but i think my biggest takeaway is you know. It's not to fear that like things are going to change in your relationship. It's how do you maintain the stuff that's working even in the early stages knowing that things are going to change knowing the structure is going to change and i love this mentality of. Can you lead with not the fear. Can you lead of not getting the fear of not taken advantage of being hurt or whatever they that may be in. That's what kind of drives that generosity if you can change your mindset of this person wants to be with me this person loves this present cares about me and i think that i think is something regardless of what state you are. Even if it's something annoying of a take out the trash verses like this person maybe didn't text me back right away to. They not like me anymore. I think the stays regardless of stage. And if you don't get the response that you wanted that it's an opportunity for conversation and going that that deeper path of expressing what you need a relationship. And i think that we can't be afraid to kind of have the expectation in have it fail because that is more of an opportunity to give your partner room to know how to show up and then also if it turns out you have these conversations over and over again that things don't change then you know you need in a partner. And that's grounds for the next partnership. So i think instead of leading with fear with this stuff lead by the way you want to be in a relationship for yourself and you do not with the expectation but also just as a way that this constraints in your bond love that my biggest takeaway is. We can't chase fairness. And i feel like i wasted much of my time chasing fairness not just in relationships in life and we all know life is not fair. There are certain things we just can't explain but choosing to chase fulfillment and This idea of equality in whatever. The sense means in a partnership. And i love that you. You've equated it to building a business because you are creating an entity together in their roles in this entity in their the responsibilities. And it's great. Carve out clarity within this entity. I also love this notion of stepping forward instead of testing your partner earlier on a relationship were constantly testing the person where dating. Oh are they going to pass his test. Are they going to say the right things. Do the right things but we also have to understand. That person has no idea what the right thing is in your mind cause they cannot read your mind unless of their psychic. The they should absolutely do that but stepping forward is contagious. Act where if you do it and the right person wants to do the same you just keep meeting each other and moving forward together. My last big takeaway is revealing this. I haven't heard it put in this word before we talked about vulnerability we've talked about open. Communication speaking your needs revealing to me actually paints it in a more romantic way than you are showing a part of you that maybe you haven't shown other people and the more we can reveal who we are the closer we can feel to partners so i really appreciate you putting that in my vocabulary because i think next time when i have a check in with my partner. Not checking anymore. It's a revealing party hardy. This like showing up is contagious in this constant showing up of of the be the partner you wanna be essentially and you know at that point. You'll either let someone rise up with you or you know if it's really the right fate it's not forever either in. That's the thing that it can save something that is going down a bad path or can help you clear on. You know the past for you. Thank you so much in kaley for writing this book and also speaking from your experience because i think it just gives us so much more weight when you can say we've lived it we've been there. We survived it and this is what we came up with something that really works and to something. We all look for in. Modern dating is models. Examples. ways that we can do relationships in a way that makes sense to us in a modern day so thank you for a paving the way for that as well for people who want to get their hands on your book. I'm guessing it's available. Wherever books are sold and anywhere else more direct yet. they can go to eighty. Eighty marriage dot com. That's our website. Information on the book is there. We also have a newsletter and a free epic date night for those who are further down where they do date nights instagram.

01:15:08 - 01:17:35

As well eighty marriage love it will thank you again for coming on the show. I think again. This was so great for people at all stages of relationships to get the wheels turning and see what. Adhd marriage can look like and for our listeners. Where we gave you eighty. We're hoping to get eighty back. I mean we're not keeping tabs but a way to give eighty percent bag is to give you give us a good review in apple. Podcast five stars. If you lines you know and that we just keep bringing you better and better content. That's how we meet each other in our relationship radical generosity right. You can do more the vibe sars. It'd be could. I'm sure you want right. Okay we're going to wrap this up in dateable fashion. Sit all the dateable. Podcast is part of the frolic podcast network. Find more. Podcast you'll love at frolic dot media slash podcasts. Want to continue the conversation. I follow us on instagram. Facebook and twitter with the handle at dateable. Podcast tag any post with a hashtag. Stay dateable and trust us. We look at all those post then head over to our website dateable podcast dot com there. You'll find all the episodes as well. As articles videos in our coaching service. With vetted industry experts you can also find our premium y series where we dissect analyzed and offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums roseau downloadable for free on spotify apple podcast. Google play overcast. Stitcher radio and other podcasts. Platforms your feedback is valuable to us. So don't forget to leave us. A review and most importantly remember to stay dateable fall means autumnal breezes and vibrant earthy colors it also means full allergens bacteria in particles coming into your home so swap out your old age back air filter with phil. Treat air filter from a retailer near you. Let's clear the air. Imagine traveling to a city like los angeles or new york before even arrived at your citizen. 'em hotel you're able to check in and open a tab on your phone you walk into a lobby. That's kind of like a living room. Filled with provocative art and cozy seating. Then you had up to your room with this giant bed and window to match as you sip. The perfect tae ordered from you. Citizen am app. See why citizen is a new way to hotel at citizen. Him dot com.