S12E4: Dating Trauma

00:00:01 - 00:05:08

The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves.  I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world.

Hello everyone welcome to another episode of dateable a show all about modern dating where we dig into the whys of people's behavior including your own when it comes to modern romance. Hello julie hello. we're back. We got a good topic today dating trauma. I should probably start with our guest. Today is anyone. That isn't our facebook community. Love in the time corona and the sounding board which is our premium community knows and loves this guest very dearly we are joined by janice eisman who is our moderator. All we'll start off by saying that before we even get into but she's also a writer for elephant journal and she wrote this article a while back in a suit as she did. We need to have you on the podcast because this topic is so good it was basically like the title of it is the dating wounds. We carry after years of being single in all about dating trauma like dating. Ptsd and of course we say trauma. We're talking about like little t not like major trauma. But i think what she really talks about is like when you've been ghosted. Not once but time after time after time it starts to take effect on your psyche society. We kind of like sweep under the rug. It's like can more in losses. If it's a divorce big break-up or you can't get pregnant or you lose a child or you lose a job event at lake people kind of in a way like with if were like. I went on one date. And i'm so upset because i got ghosted. They'd be like really like is not that big a deal and kind of the point of this whole thing is like it's not an isolation but when it keeps happening over and over again it can become a big deal. I think a lot of times we treat dating like it's a battleground too. So when we are faced with these wounds like just a just a bullet the bullet here and there we are taught and we were encouraged to be resilient and just keep going keep fighting but we forget that also on the battleground there needs to be a lot of reflection to a like. Why did i get hit. How did i gain. How did it feel when i got hit. And that's sort of what we're going to address in. This episode is how to address the wounds that you've experienced dating so that you can move forward not like you're a battle but in a much more sort of like a realistic way of facing modern romance modern dating totally and i think like all weekend a bit like sitting with me this one question that we actually talked to one of our members in the sounding board about and she brought up like if i am starting to get like apathetic of be like just you know peaking at home in chilling dot like you know being so dedicated to apps and all of that in like ton of not caring if someone goes like. Is that a sign. That i'm giving up or is that a sign that i'm growing in. The slight question is really been sitting with me. Because i think like i have also been like kind of a weird phase right now day like. I've been really active again starting in january when i got back. I was using apps when i was in boston. But obviously wasn't meeting anyone but like doing more virtual than like since. I've been back up in definitely more active either despite talking or meeting in real life. I've definitely been in this phase. Where like things like. Haven't been like as seamless as they have for me in the past and i don't blame apps because like i've definitely been apps and like the first day i went on. I met a boyfriend. So it's like it just ebbs and flows. This is like a random tangent. I feel like what people are like. Fuck the apps like the app sack like really like would you ever say that about like your favorite bar like if you bet somewhat if they're like you know like ignored you at your bar it. What a date you. You would never be fully the bar like it's just like you're just meeting cubans but anyways that's a rich of side note that i was thinking people just love blaming about the environment. Exactly the thing that you met someone a friend introduce you and then didn't work out. You're like ashok my friend. You wouldn't be like you could be like. Oh the bad taste you though like that. That's true yeah but you wouldn't be like fuck my my friend. I'm taking a sabbatical my friends. It wouldn't be as extreme. And i think maybe the apps for like the new play bigger city. Because i feel like that you be like oh i'm gonna move maybe it's the save actually like threat to move that you're back a week later. You're right yeah reinstall love to see the numbers from these dating items on average someone installs uninstalled in there.

00:05:09 - 00:10:07

That would be such an interesting stat to say totally totally. But i think this actually is relevant to what i've tried to break up is like i've definitely been in patch lately. Which is actually ironic. 'cause dickey ova. Who is our our gas. That was a of that kind of told me. I was going to beat by purse this year in warned me i was gonna go through attach that i could not get discouraged field jaded and i think of it right now. That's kind of it away. Promising but i think like being in this patch like you kind of have a decision. How you're gonna handle it like you're like yes. I could delete done. Install the apps. Or i can like learn from it. Feel what i need to feel. I think especially in this episode to. It's like justified. That gets it. It never is fun when you get ghosted. Like no one's going to say it's a good time but it's like how much do you let you let it your psyche. And i think that is like actually empowering that it is in your control to decide in the way. I look at it too. I'm like okay. Like i've had the string of people that i'm really excited about than they're not like making prioritizing beating up is big of a priority as i am or like i meet someone who just like a totally different life stages but the next person could be amazing and like. I don't want other people to like just detract me from being like being able to talk to that amazing person so i do think like all these feelings are valid but i think ultimately it's up to us to shoes how we interpret them in batch like the original question is a giving up or is it like that. You've actually made strides. I think it's like a. It's a tough question to answer. I think and i think ultimately like you're gonna know if you're you're not staying true to yourself you're just not dating because it's like easier than being rejected versus. You're getting so comfortable with yourself that you're able to let the stuff slide a bit more a term. I hear over and over again. And i used to when i was dating. Is this feeling of numbness. Your num- when. I don't want to feel these feelings. And that is your brains way of protecting you and protecting your heart protecting you from the heartbreak. That could come with dating but when you are feeling numb it's a. I really hate that feeling by the way it's like i can't somehow. I can't connect to my emotions where i feel like you go on a date and you're like i don't even know how you feel about this person because i'm just feeling a little bit about it When you are feeling. I think that is a really great signal for you to step back and think like what is it that that i really wanna get out of dating. What do i need to do right now to get myself out of the state because i think numbness the one level up from apathy like a medic but then the next levels like you feel absolutely nothing i that is probably not the best place to be. So i think it's good to to be relating back to this. Episode is to look back at the culmination of all the dating trauma you faced and uses up to help you reflect and kind of like categorize what those traumas meant to you so that you can get out of state of of numbness. The numbness is. I think that's a really good point because that is feeling that people don't really talk about everyone has a right to how they feel like no one's gonna ever say you say that your feelings are invalid but i think it's really ultimately what you choose to do with those feelings and maybe what you choose to take a break and that's fine or you choose to use it as an opportunity that you're like okay. I'm getting closer to what i'm looking for. And i think like editor. Like i was talking to a friend of mine. And i'm like i feel like lately i've been like more open to giving people second dates even if it's not like great on date one especially in worlds of covid where we've maybe talked a bit more than before and i feel like some of them haven't in unlike feel discouraged by that or it could be like maybe this actually is a turning point for me. Maybe it comes with a little more potential rejection. Because i'm not the first to say like no but maybe it shows that. I'm like becoming more open. I don't know you can look at it. However way you want to tell about gaining perspective right yelling italy world you see the world how you choose to see and you choose to see it in a certain way and that puts you in a certain mood so i guess ultimately the decisions up to you. How do you want to see the situation. Yeah that kind of like segues to interesting stuff going at our lives rats on the home purchase. That's super exciting. A very excited for you that you have now officially a homeowner another thing. That's not necessarily celebrated as much as like it should be. I think thank you is a big fucking deal so for anybody who knows me personally. You know i've been making a slow transition down to l. a. to be closer to my family And it's been probably six months in the making. I think six plus months as part of that. I wanted to purchase my first home. So i was able to do that I opened escrow on new year's eve and closed Not too long ago so my first condo.

00:10:07 - 00:15:10

It's kind of a big fucking deal because it is so much paperwork. It's sore like dating right. 'cause like in the initial search stage you're looking at you have no idea what you're looking for. You're just going by gut feeling like okay. Well this home feels good but is there something better out there. They have 'em i can. I see myself committing to this place for a long time and once you do commit to a place you kinda get cold feet like way. That's a lot to commit for me financially. It's a lot to hemorrhage out for a home but it's been a great process for my partner. And i because he's been extremely supportive. He's in the real estate business so he really helped me along the way but the way we arranged this. I think it's goes into what nikki novato told me to. You're going to choose a very non traditional route for for a partnership. And i love what we're doing. He owns a places hammer. Cisco now i owned this place in l. a. but i'm calling it our place because we found it together. We decided on together. We are furnishing it together. Renovating it together to gather so that now we have the freedom of two places but also individually we have our own assets like this his mind that is his and like on paper yes. We'd we individually owned these but when we speak about it when we talk about life it's like now we have two places we can go back and san francisco and la. And i really do. I really do love this process and getting to this like non traditional route. I mean a lot of friends have been like is you do do is s someone you wanna do. Wanna pay him rent at his other. Plays a heap as rented this place. You know it just doesn't make any sense. Julie is just ill. I love it. I love it. I don't people buy it. But i actually find it so inspiring at i love that you guys are making it work. 'cause like you have reasons that you need to be down there are more. He is reasons he needs to be up here bore. It's obviously not that far that you can do it. I think it could be a lot harder if it was like across. The country are like in different countries. Like we're talking about. You can't drive it right. Yeah but i think like it's actually very inspiring that like you can make something work. Even if there are challenges or roadblocks that come up that caused you to be like oh we actually might need to like living situation and i think people really do wanna make something work. I like do strongly believe this. It can work like you can't find the solution but it does take two people wanting to make it work if only one does it's not gonna work out like if for instance like you wanted to go there. And he was like. Oh yeah. I'll come like once in a blue moon like that. Would it work but the founder. You're kind of like going back and forth together. I think that does work. So it's like you guys foul worked for you is really the ultimate. I will say one last thing. I wanted to comment about this home. Buying experience is that there is no other no other process. That reminds you that you are a single unmarried woman. Like a home buying experience after you fill out the application for loans for escrow for closing. Docs they verify. Every single time they email your call you and ask. I just want to verify you or single woman correct and you have to say yes every time and when you sign with they have a notary that come to you and when you sign the notary also has to ask you like three times. Basically she's like a single woman right or a single woman. You're single woman you you have to be like. Yes yes yes i get. It's like property reasons. Each on confirm nobody else can claim rights to the property. But at the same time. Like hello do you do. Do you still need to remind me that. I am an unmarried woman. I already know. Thank as i've ever you saying that. I actually view it quite differently. I think it's frigging power egg that like we can be single women buying homes. I think it's also. I actually would love to be provided each time that i have a single woman that could be putting down enough money to buy a home so it's all perspective. I mean i was more like this is fucking annoying. I don't need to tell you this. Like six thousand times. I get it i get. It is a lot. So i keep getting yet but speaking of so cal and california as a whole have you heard about this new thing with the access codes for the vaccine. No a so. Apparently this is this is a scam. It's not a scab but it's tricky. The system is basically skipping the line for vaccination there is access codes. It actually originated out of private schools in l. a. And they found these access codes that were meant for like underserved and underprivileged community members in now they're circulating to like anyone and i have friends that have used it and basically got appointments oakland coliseum and some of them totally were under the impression that like people weren't using the vaccines because we've heard that also but it's come out that like people that need the appointments can't get the appoint reds so yeah.

00:15:10 - 00:20:01

It's become like this whole thing. And i think they're like try to shut it down but i thought it was super interesting is actually just like baby. Think about to like even over the weekend. Like i was with a friend that got the vaccine and he was like having people over his house and it was like. Oh i have the vaccine and there's gonna be divide the people that have vaccine doj and i wonder like how that will impact eating too. Because it's like. I think when you have the vaccine you're going to be more like oh i can get out and like resume life again and then obviously you don't. You're still going to be in the same boat as today. So i think it's going to be an interesting dynamic like as i think. Initially i thought like every would be kind of on the same page base off of age but it seems like that's not happening. People are kind of gaming the system of it. yeah. I was wondering why i know. So many young people who've been back but also remember people feel like once you're vaccinated can be around people who aren't vaccinated. You can still pass the virus on if you're vaccinated. You are more likely to not get it but you could still give it to other people so it doesn't exactly make you safe around other people who aren't vaccinated just so y'all know i know i think people are using it though as a thick like especially like guys with women like i vaccine and gas. It could be a false pretense like you were just saying but there's something about hearing that if you were choosing for two dudes was vaccinated. What was it like. Who are you going to pick to hook up with all other factors the same right so i think people are like using it. A pickup live like the haves and the have not. There's definitely a lot of loopholes. Like i know like friends that are therapists that have been able to get the healthcare hell there. It's not like they're doing anything wrong. But it's also not necessarily like frontline healthcare workers right so it's like there are some definite loopholes in the system so yeah i think it's gonna be interesting as this plays out like how people approached eating in like being in relationships like what activities were comfortable with versus not when there is that disparity. Well that makes me really curious to know if you are listening right now. You've experienced something with people being vaccinated or not vaccinated and how that impacted your dating. Let us know we'd love to hear some great anecdotal stories. Yeah i haven't seen it on the profiles yet. But i think it's gonna come it's gonna come. Yeah it's going to happen. I think people are still a little scared to say. Thank then you you you question like how did you right so i think we had this conversation actually in the facebook community which is a good segue to some of our just you know announcements of the week and one person was like i wouldn't put it in my profile. It doesn't define who. I am as a person which gap it. I don't think that's the reason why people are it in their profile. It's because they want to have this air of safety right like me because i'm safe right So yeah anyways as if you've been around with us for a while you probably kinda know the drill but definitely check out love in the time of corona. That's our public. Facebook group and we also have a sounding board which is our kind of private members only group were the real action happens. We got a lot of great things in store. One of actually our audio series is very interrelated to this topic this week. It's all about managing setbacks that inevitably happened in relationships and dating which could be like dating trauma could be one person wants to move. One place at one person wants to stay another. There could be all sorts of things that come up and we talk about like how to manage roadblocks setbacks in the real deep stuff that really can get you want and if you're missing a sense of community and connection meeting new people. This is the perfect place to do it. I think some great friendships and have come out of the sounding board. So if you're looking for that community again we really recommend the sounding board. Yup we have can't hey dj to is going to be dateable after show guests the spot so if you are a big ken page fan which we know a lot of the dateable community is this is also the time to join to hear all from him. So to get more information on the soundboard. Just go to dateable. Podcasts dot com slash sounding board. And while you're there just stay on dateable. Podcast dot com nation about our podcast is there. I know we have a ton of new listeners. Especially out of after our new york times features. So thank you welcome. Thanks for listening and you can just go. The website of you want any other information. We also have merged by the way so a good place. And while you're on. The internet might as well apple podcast and giving review if you like us. If you don't like us let us know your feedback to you. Know what but only a like we really wanna hear about the from the people who really like us. Yeah hopefully every. I don't think people realize how much effort goes a podcast egg at. I'm like. I don't know podcasts.

00:20:01 - 00:25:02

I've listened to that. It's not my cup of tea but i just move on. You don't like there's a dating right exactly exactly what i do. Want to point out one really funny bad caveat. We got on our reviews that was basically like the claim to be dating experts but they disagree on things like this is actually like the epitome of our show is one. We're not claiming to be the experts. I don't think i actually don't think anyone even like people that study dating for years dating experts. Yes you might have an understanding of something more than the average person but no one is an expert because there's no one size fits all solution which brings it to the point of guests. We're going to disagree on things. That's what keeps it interesting. I know people like it when we disagree on things. We don't want to be each other's echo chamber take what serves you doubt and hopefully leave us a good review. Let's get to janice on. A dating. Drama will janice has been so instrumental in getting to know our members in our facebook group love in the time corona but we also want to know more about janice who is. She is her forties or delete from canada. She currently lives in calgary. She's been there for eight years. If you don't know where calgary as it's in canada owner of my body couture one to one movement studio that helps people feel better in their bodies and by night. She's a dating relationship enthusiasts in evolution dating from the era of irl dates. Seems like another lifetime that involved the telephone. Whoa that actually. That's back now rotary oughta life. I remember lava life and keyboards and tender and tax. She writes about her lived experiences with relationships for elephant journal and she recently had an article called the dating wounds we carry after years of being single never been married started dating h seventeen eleven. I love all this information. Regained it so and we want to basically learn more about this idea of dating trauma. I'm going to say daddy dating trauma with a with a small t. And what does it mean right so. This is a very interesting topic because it's not the trauma you're thinking of. It's a different kind of trauma that we've all experienced carried in our lives. I feel like would you put this article up at our group. We're like we need to do this topic because we've definitely hit this like throughout many episodes but we haven't dedicated a full episode like you said it's not like big trauma like Sexual harassment sexual assault. Some of things that you think of when you think of the word trauma which is a loaded word but i guess like to you. What is dating trauma so it is. It's definitely the little tea but the little tea is kind of like a bunch of cuts. That happened over in oregon. So what i noticed. I really was a student of dating techniques for a long time when i was fifteen. My mom handed me a copy of the rules in that had such gems as never ever call him back never accept a date after wednesday night etc so some of my favorite hits You know. Even as i aged matured. Those rules just went onto facebook. They never went away. And so when. I was struggling to find a partner those rules morphed into lean back in your feminine things like that but they were always there and what i noticed was the underpinning for women was that we were always to be and this hetero normative dating. We're always to be fun. Playful light we were to flirt end. So this very open space where we are presenting our hearts making this nurturing environment being fun and playful letting touch us in going on date after date i was like the classic to dater. So i always get that second date always but then when things would crumble and fall apart i wouldn't get asked on the third day eight or men would ghost after texting me for you know four thousand million tax and then just suddenly stop or not ask out on the third date or ghost me then when i look for support from friends i would get well. Why are you letting him take your power mend needs space. It was all of this. I was supposed to be closed off and not have any emotion over this and when you go on dozens and dozens of dates it is traumatizing. Eventually i actually lost the skill set at the point when i wrote that article. I recognize that no longer had skulls had to even be in a relationship was really good. I was first and second date. I could play this game. I'm open in finding flirty of mormon kind.

00:25:03 - 00:30:03

Twos may choose me when it really came to the skills of relationships. I had put up all these walls. Because i wasn't actually supported in that space of this is painful. This feels like rejection. This feels awful. I am may twenty seventh cycle of this. And i feel terrible because we're constantly told don't let it bother you. Don't get upset by this. Don't hand your power away it means nothing space etc It's kind of like the difference between a a series of small paper cuts over time versus having your legs severed at once. This sort of trauma accumulates over time where you internalize it. You're like oh she's a just a paper cut. I'm just supposed to get it and each time is still hurts but i just internalize it because it just happens and over time as it builds it becomes something much bigger than you thought it was. So that's what i really want to focus on. Yeah i think it's like if you get ghosted once it stings but it's not it doesn't like eat it your self esteem but when it happens over and over and over again you you turn to like. Is there something wrong with me. Like what am i doing so like what do you think is like the fallout up. All of this. I've thought of like emotional walls or down for relationships. Why i think the fallout was at the point. When i wrote the article i actually was starting a new relationship. And i recognized how anxious i was. You know we talk about anxious attachment styles. But i think it was really different than it was not actually even an attachment style. I was so anxious about what was going to happen. Because get the compliments and the attention and all of those things that happen in those first couple of dates which you know maybe as a two week relationship and then it would just disappear. And i recognize that. That's not a long time with any one given person would not happening over and over a mentioned the call. I believe that i've gone. Approximately a thousand. I states in my life so it happened two thousand times. And that's enough times that i felt like i'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. I'm constantly sitting on edge in those early phases of ino. Is this compliment real. Trust this person. I trust the situation. I'm texting right now. In investing time in this person is this legitimate. Is this person going to disappear. Even once i got past that phase than there is new levels of anxiety because then i was in two places that i hadn't really gone but you know if you're dating somebody twice for not into deep vulnerable conversation. Were not into really heart centered connection. We're not actually really up place connection at all. So i think the longer term was actually can action itself started to feel quite foreign and scary to me because i had played over and over this. I can pseudo connect. I can fake connect i can. I can get that second date but it's not really true connection. I totally can relate to early exciting. It's like something that i've definitely tried to like you know. I think it's like what you were saying. No it's just totally try to push it away opposed to really like feel it but it is something that definitely creeps up. And i think what's hard you managed to the center article. But it's like in bigger things that happen like if you'd like miscarriage or you lose a job like you're allowed to mourn it almost like people are like. Why are you just like make who cares like this. Is the person almost like compounded. Because then you start to feel guilt and shame to feel that way you kind of feel like stupid for even like getting upset about it right. I certainly yeah. Yeah i think that we have defined cultural boxes of what we say. This is okay to feel sad or upset about dating is actually not typically wanted them if you think of even a longer term relationship what we typically tell people is would just go out and meet someone else just the were just is always in there in some spoken or unspoken way it is will. You weren't married so it's a big deal. Everyone knows that divorce is the process. But i don't find the break-up of relationships gets honored the same way and those little mini dating periods are definitely not honored at l. It seen as well. How long were you together. Okay if it's under a certain amount of time it's really invalidated. It literally is something that is. You need to just pick yourself up. Go to the bar. Dance it off every Definitely never it again and it doesn't work that way doing this process over and over again so just started to notice a lack of support. A lack of compassion elect self compassion. Actually even for myself. Where i would start to panic because oh god you know it happened again.

00:30:03 - 00:35:04

It happened again. And i didn't really feel like i had an outlet for this totally unacknowledged phenomenon of cereal dating and the pain that it's actually causing people are nervous systems body worker by trade. Our nervous systems actually see rejection feel rejection as pain so if i drop something on my foot i would feel pain so too if they go out on a date in the guy ghosts me. I feel paint. That's how my body response to that. Because i'm human. We have strong. Tribal poll just biologically so getting rejected from somebody else. Feels painful and noticing. That all of this advice specially I'm female so i can only speak to female was definitely not geared towards that compassionate empathetic place and it ended people. Were trying to help. But all of that was dedicated towards shutting out. Feel nothing. and what's wrong with you and if this compounds over time. Because i think when you're talking about there's no outlet for this. The outlet i do see is people end up complaining. It becomes a blame game us bad dating behavior. They become very catchy dating terms but there is nothing about. How do i feel. And how do i reconcile with those feelings. So when these feelings are ignored and a compounds over time how does that affect your love life especially yours janice how. How did you see affect your love. Life fell. I think the idea behind dating is connecting and what i noticed was how many times i actually disconnected. So we have a million opportunities in those early phases to choose to connect or to disconnect. And i would often start to disconnect so the irony was that what i wanted most was connection and i probably actually created scenarios myself that were disconnecting and or i chose partners who actively weren't capable of connecting. What's an example the scenario that you were just saying well. I think can connecting activity is actually a woman calling a man if i want to talk to him. Let's pick up the phone and call him. But i would lean back. Let's test him. Let's see how interested he is. Let's have him do the work. Let's have him asked me out on the second date even though inside myself i knew if i wanted to talk to him or knew if i wanted to go out on that second date but i would choose to actually take that disconnecting action. I would sometimes give compliments that were. They weren't actually genuine. It's playing as if so. I think that that did ultimately impact the people who would ask me out. I didn't necessarily check where people were Didn't may be with some questions of people's emotional capabilities. Because i was afraid of the answer so you know if they match with me period. I wouldn't do this again. But basically a i remember telling people that so no it was true. You know. I would go on a date with anybody who'd ask which is a great. It's a great activity. If you're a new dater. I was not a new data. I'd been like fifteen to twenty years at that point so it essentially was allowing people to choose me and then i was stepping out of the process and i was not actively bringing that connection towards me and then that's like vicious cycle because that like in this situation men will say like. Oh she's not actually interested and then they lose interest. And there's just like that's the cycle that keeps continuing itself. This is just years and years of really bad dating advice. Because i think yeah again it sent you you said it. It's very ironic. When our whole goal with dating as defined connection with someone yet our other goal is to win. And when you try to win the situation you disconnect and the you do not present in authentic part of yourself. So how are you really supposed to find a true connection. And that's where. I think this this dating trauma can can really hinder someone's relationship and they're dating cycle is that you forget. What your main goal is you lose sight of the perspective of what dating as i also think that it creates a scenario where you actually disconnect from yourself so we talked about this earlier but i had these feelings i could feel it in my chest i could feel that pit stomach. I can feel that anxiety sort of taking over which makes you panicky. It made my thoughts run faster. My voice would serve the pitch tone when it would call. Girlfriends would go up and then to sort of hear well meaning advice of literally. Don't give your power away. don't let it rather you. You know that men need space. While i have to. I would have to shut off from myself in order to live with myself. So then i would have to override own body signals to say no no.

00:35:04 - 00:40:05

I don't actually feel bad. i'm fine. i'm good so then. That hinders connection with someone else. Because we're not even connected to herself. And then i think about like okay. If i've really going to follow that pattern through a relationship like do. I want a relationship where i've afraid to text the first early like you know like all these things that were just saying like that's not setting you up for healthy relationships so it's like. Why am i doing this in the dating phase like if anything i always wanted like tasks like what's the reaction to me being how i would be in a relationship because for so many years we thought that's how you take control of your dating Is when you disconnect when you ignore all your feelings yup and you try to force something and contrive something to happen of by quote unquote control. Every we've talked about it before. We definitely blamed the rules. Why mad love bitches like that. Series of books are the downfall for so bad. But i think dating terms are actually downfall to. I'm curious you guys think. Like i feel like by normalizing ghosting or bride. Cramming are all of that. It's almost like giving permission to do these things like. How do you guys think it's affecting dating trauma. I think it gives a lot of into awareness to that. I have been dating online since. I don't even know what your lobby light says. Around back which. I realized i had no idea what love is up to young. It's not a new. It's not any so in those days. Yeah there was actually ghosting. We would go out on dates and nobody would pick up the phone and call the other person back. That's a form of ghosting but in reality. No-one was upset about that. Nolan talked about it for hours with their friends. No one went online and bitched about it. Facebook didn't even exist so there is no place to sort of build momentum without but it puts a lot of focus on that behavior and it's really interesting because that word is around but also nobody's acknowledging the emotional pain. It's what i see instead is. Oh this asshole ghosted. Me mako stirs. But it's not. The conversation of that really hurt my heart. A really was starting to feel a connection with this person. This is a many break-up actually forget it. it's a breakout. It might have been a week long relationship. It's still something we have to mostly process. I think biologically. We are exposed to more people on tinder in one day than we would have ever met in been exposed to in our lifetime back in the day and we don't even have to go that far back in the day. My grandma's alive. She's ninety eight years old and she came from a small town. I know that in two hours on tender. I could swipe more people than she literally saw in her entire life and our bodies are going to have a biological response to that because this is just not we were not biologically given catalogs of people to flip through and then have these connecting conversations in so although dating advice says and it's not bad advice but don't get ahead of it stay present or biology is saying. Oh we're connecting or vegas nervous connecting were having all of these hormonal signals. That we actually are making this connection and the average time it takes between starting conversation going on the date is a week and then we could say even if we were like really aggressive with her. We're going to go on a second date within a couple of days. We still that connection. That's been built. It's taken. I love statistics so one time i sort of figured it out and you know i spent forty hours a month just on those apps and then there was phone calls and text in between indeed tim. Between so i'm investing. I don't even know how much sixty hours a month on dating. And i started laughing girlfriends crunch because those like unsleeping if i was going to other job need for this shit salary right. I totally needed a salary. If i was going to the gym forty to sixty hours a month and getting this result. I would stop like this is crazy. Here there's no result that's happening and so it's really frustrating. Because i think there's also no emotional knowledge -ment of what that forty to sixty hour investment brings and even though it's with different people my brain in my body said well that's an investment and so part of what started happened was every single eight actually that investment group eager. A certain way. It wasn't like it was growing smaller or shrinking. It was like okay. You know you're not like it just never went through my mind. But it's it's like you know now we're at our fifty nine deliver. The other people were building on that next person. You're like i've already wasted ex about of like this i. It's gotta be good. I think. I think that's an interesting point. What you said about like how were exposed to so many people because part of what how you define dating trauma was that things kept happening over and over again like these.

00:40:05 - 00:45:10

Small interactions though every person that doesn't respond to you on tinder every person that doesn't swiped right like even though it's a really tiny interaction like they all build up into something that just simply wasn't there years ago just due to volume alone so we're experiencing more of that micro trauma i think. That's very warrant. I noticed what would start happening was that i would just hit this wall of overwhelm and then delete the app. So i would i. Would i ghosted so many people depending on what your definition ghosting is. I literally had to mend the aspirant dates Again and i would just delete the never talk to them again. I would go into these zones. Where i just was so overwhelmed with it that i would just take the app off and what whatever phase of is in didn't matter they were but that sucks to because that next person could be amazing. They're basically getting like shit on because of all the other people's like bad experience right like in your also denying yourself at amazing potential experience. Because i mean i really do believe like it only takes one and i am not trying to minimize the pain of dating trauma because i totally have been there myself. But i do think that fortunate that all these like shitty experiences Essentially like potentially make you miss out on that. Oh i completely agree. And i actually do want to say this because it matters these. Were not bad dates. These were off stories where i could go on and be. Oh my god. You'll never believe it were almost all great dates. That's why we went on a second day. Which almost makes it worse. Because i was never going to friends and being like wow you have no idea what just happened it. I didn't have bad dates. I didn't have bad experiences. I there's multiple of these men that i have invaded social media touch with their great men. That wasn't the problem. And so i think it does actually make it worse because it wasn't like some heinous scenario where somebody was acting poorly or throwing whatever i don't know you name and we've all seen these curbs it just it just didn't proceed. There was no rational reason for it. So i think that the overwhelm wasn't because they were shitty dates. The overwhelm was because i didn't have an emotional outlet to feel safe in process. This at a certain point friend didn't want to hear it. Dating groups didn't wanna hear it. I didn't have the skill set to actually know how to process it. Because it's it's an unseen talked about phenomenon that i agree. I'm not alone in this. Many people who've been on the dating marquette for there's no specific period of time but they have a lot of pain around this they have feelings of rejection. They feel sad. They feel a sense of grief that they can't make this work and you're right. It does only take one but at some point when our emotions are almost trapped inside it starts to feel lonely. And you feel minimized and it's really hard to keep that positive attitude of could be the next one literally. We feel like a failure. I mean i've definitely been there before them. Like i don't even want to tell my friends about the state because like if it doesn't work out that it's like they're going to ask how the date way that it's like another one that you have to explain like happened. This person ghosted or wasn't a fan. Whatever and i think it stems back to this route that like being single. There's something wrong with you. Then when you're actively trying to fix it up saying that in the air quotes by data in that. It doesn't work. You start to internalize it that there is like legit something wrong with and let's just pause on that. I i wanna just like expand on this for for anybody listening because it's really easy to listen to this and think of other people experiencing dating trauma but when you think about it for yourself. I'm no psychology expert. But i do know. Victims of trauma have a delayed reaction. Sometimes it takes years for them to feel that trauma in their body. And psychologically i think the same goes for a dating trauma is it takes. That delayed reaction is affecting how you're dating today. So whatever you're putting out there right now what you're experiencing could be something that you experienced five years ago ten years ago right so i think we need to think of ways to move forward from the previous dating rama. In order to address. What is happening your love life today. So what are some ways. We can start healing that past trauma. Well one of the things. I did was actually stopped talking to friends to try to figure out what had gone wrong and they went to the men themselves. Okay get it from the source. Yes i mean. That's the only person that knows right. Your friends don't know my friends don't know and we would come up with these amazing amazing theories of all kinds and assess in then eventually. That's how i would get closure. But i started asking that peace and going to the men and saying hey can i just ask you a couple of questions and what i found out was actually astonishing to me.

00:45:10 - 00:50:12

None of it had anything to do with me. And what i heard instead what. We're things like. I got back together with ex girlfriend. I'm not fully divorced without process. I wanted to sleep with on the first date in. You didn't put out things like that. There were a lot of scenarios that involve other people and lack of emotional readiness in quite off. And what i was actually presenting on dates was as one man. Put it. you have your shit together. You said that in your profile you said it when we talked in. The nice sat across the table from you and thought. Wow you really have your together. I'm not there. Because i have this in resolve scenario mostly at i heard that theme over and over again and that actually started to change things for me because then i could lean into that night started to do a ton of emotional work because a lot of this really was a lack of emotional skill sets so i put myself dating groups where the focus was only self growth and only positively like our community. This the absolutely and that's why ended up actually in your group because it fit that self growth in positively model and not positive liberty that's fake or contrived or muzzled where we're not allowed to tell those stories but because the people in those groups are there to do the work themselves not to blame other people because that's super easy. We can all create juries. We can save victimized and that started to help me get connected back to myself. I wanna to double down on this. Because i actually had a similar situation happened to me like i remember like i went through this stage of cereal dating and i was always in the mindset of like why don't they like me it was all about me and i. I think it is easy to follow in that trap because the reality is after two dates. You actually don't really know that much about them like you've been out for a couple hours like usually they're not going to be that forthcoming about what's going on in their life. Especially if it's enough that it means that they can't pursue a relationship with you or with anyone else. And i remember like after i dated by most serious acts like i feel like he was like very open about just like look like the issues that were going on his personal life and i remember being like wow i think also that just comes with being in a relationship to you realize. It's not just about you eddie. Bore like there is another person here. They have a whole world view that literally of their actions or inactions have nothing to do with you. And i think like learning that in seeing that and like i remember like my axe cancelled one of our very early dates like day of like devastated but he did follow up like Rescheduled all that. So i did give it another chance than like later on. I learned it was because of like depression that he had. So it's like how. Would i know that though going in. Then that's something that has literally zero to do with you and now if you don't know that you're just like internalizing it that you did something wrong again. That's right and then. I think that i started. Before i underwent a change process. I started to describe specialness to people that would ask me out again. This opportunity doesn't come around very much. This is a really person instead of actually going inside in saying to myself. Do i want this. It was it was coming from that lens of. Did they want me because it was happening so often that i did feel that sense of flawed. It takes a special person to go on a date with a single mother. I literally was told that so many times. It takes a special person to date a business owner whose female i was told things that in so i internalize all of that and instead of actually sitting at that table thinking does this person meet my checklist. Are they showing signs of being emotionally available. Are they being consistent. Are they intellectually engaging. I was actually trying to do the office at were if if out again well they might be special because you just proved they were and i think that that just creates that feedback loop again where then we are actually curbing ourselves in its it's sub-conscious. It's not like i set out to do that. But that's why. I think it's so important to actually have support groups like argue where we can have those conversations. There's so much compassion in our group If you wanna learn how to speak with compassion go into our group and follow ryan jeffrey. Because everything he says shutouts is the best. He is so compassionate towards people's experiences. And i had to learn that skill. It was not inherent to me much as people always say that women are nurturing carrying that was not inherent to me and i now have self awareness and self compassion practice that i do every day and that was a hugely important piece of moving past this as well because then i could just sit with my experience knowledge that it was painful.

00:50:12 - 00:55:03

A didn't call twenty five girlfriends. One after the other seeking that sort of please make me feel better. Inevitably again through no fault of their own. It would just make me feel worse. Because what i really wanted was someone to say. That sounds really painful. That's unfortunate charge. But i had to learn how to do that for myself. And i'm still practicing. That in a will be forever. But i think it's really important to also have somebody else in the world doing it for you. Posted group ryan kinda talking about it earlier that ultimately this need you like it made it difficult to have relationships. You had seen the walls up. And i think it's kind of like chicken and egg because i've thought about this before like i'm like i don't wanna go on a date in like share my whole life story or not like my whole life story but you know enough about myself that this person gets to know me only for them to disappear but at the same time like if you don't share anything about yourself than it's going to be really hard to even make a connection for them to potentially be a date to so. How do you like balance those two laughing. Because how i learned to balance it was to do what i will call fake vulnerability. I spend time went on one with people in my job where i exchange a lot of stories with them and i you know. I'm not a hairdresser. But i function in that same capacity where i talk to people all day long so i really learned what stories sounded vulnerable in sounded like Sharing something that was actually personal. But actually i didn't have any emotional charger So i kind of go on dates and share things that sounded like they must be vulnerable in connecting. But i actually had no heart behind. Give us an example. Yeah everyone's gonna share this other next date now. I'm not sure nothing's jumping into my head by things that you in podcast so julie and you know you have that experience because you're sharing things on podcast and they're not things that you're wanting to keep a secret or that you're necessarily sharing with your best friends but that you would feel comfortable putting in public so i would share difficulties about being a business owner or i would share something about you. Know it commonly came up by malone parents. So how did that happen. I would share some version about story. That was polish had emotional connection to it but it really not every deep dark secret. You don't need to reveal. No and i don't think that you should be doing that on first and second date anyways but i have a public career in. These are things that i would write on instagram with the exact same amount of emotional charge to it. So that's not actually vulnerable that's fake vulnerability. It's performed remaining. It's staring things that actually don't connect because there's no heart in it. It's it's words it's coming out of your head it's not coming out of your heart and your body interesting. That's an interesting distinction. I like it. Because it's it's like i think performing sometimes i think of like you know putting on an act essentially and i don't think it's that because you still are sharing what's coming from you but you're just not like if this person never called you back you wouldn't necessarily have something out there to them that would be out there to the public essentially or they wouldn't feel comfortable with the public. I guess what i would say is i didn't put i didn't have any skin in the game. I wasn't taking is actually unknowingly falling into these gender stereotypes tropes were. I'm acting like him nurturing. I'm acting like i'm carrying acting like an open. I i am actually fun and playful as it is but i was really playing in that and then you know the man would ask me out on the date amount would pay. The men would demand was doing the same thing. He's acting as if but in the meantime not saying my ex girlfriend is hovering around outside. I'm not actually fully divorced Mission for being here to see if i can sleep with you tonight and so he was hiding something but actually so was i in so it's no wonder that we couldn't get off the ground but i've been in the dating market long enough to know that. I think we are all doing this on in. It's why people are so dissatisfied because we are acting as if and nobody wants to really put any skin in the game. Everybody's playing this game of chicken and not. I think why we have the safety of all these rules. Because well if i do this and i do that and i do this other thing. I'm not actually invested. My hurt son invested. So if i get rejected. He rejected me for stories on instagram. And not actually the real me but again talking hetero normally the guys are doing exactly the same thing and then every just feels this sense of emptiness in loss and disconnection disatisfaction so fake vulnerability. You're still putting your foot in the game because you are sharing about yourself.

00:55:03 - 01:00:01

You're just not going so far in. You're getting like way ahead of things either. Yeah i think it's just i think. Dating israeli an energetic connection relationships are about an energy exchange. And i wasn't really offering much energy. They were words without soul. Ooh that's That's fascinating. Because i feel like that's it goes back into the data view conversation. This goes one step deeper. But you're also revealing things about you that you're not super attached to I do think vulnerabilities to be earned on a date. Yes wallner ability right. I remember on a day agree. Who revealed that he got a girl pregnant and she was super upset and ended up getting an abortion thursday and that he came back and apologized to her embassy. Said you shouldn't keep the baby. And then he wanted to get back together with her and she's like away and i was like wait. I haven't even ordered a drink yet. I've ever you texting me about the isis. Remember his name right. Like why do you need to know that story about him right. I just feel and also in some ways. I just felt like i didn't earn that. No that sounds like somebody processing emotions in front of you Yeah i mean. I don i li- i like what you're saying with fake vulnerability. I don't know if i love the word. Fake out there we need to do. It's like pbs like v. or something so real vulnerability after a date and again. This is something actually quite honestly. I feel the patriarchy trains. That of women is saying. I had a really great time and i would love to see you again. Can we plan for that. Real vulnerability does not need to be sharing stories about your abortion. Those are things. Yes they need to be earned. But i think what are those small things that make us slightly uncomfortable. I'd love a good night kiss. I'd love to see you again at home. Can we text. it's yourself out there a little bit. that is vulnerable and a think when we're waiting for men to do it. We're not doing that. And then i personally was trying to kind of fill out vulnerability bucket with different things. But it's actually. Was those little things that were missing in so there was no hurt. His iowa's coming home hoping to hear from the guy or calling girlfriends in expressing things that it wasn't saying to the man and actually even even when they ghosted me or even when they said you know let's not go out again instead of actually talking to this feelings with them which would have taken less than five minutes. I would invest all of that in telling girlfriend so my vulnerability actually went to my friends because they would say. Oh you know. how's your tate. Just really he was so cute. And i will tell him. I didn't tell him. And so you know i think when we hear the word vulnerability we hear deep dark secrets in it doesn't medium dark secrets. It's just what is in your body at this moment. I wanna connect with you and making that ask for that connection and so now you'll see us on the board. But i'm like a raging feminist. Let's get rid of these gender norms. Let's get rid of these hetero normative meaning rules in. let's actually follow ourself in. It's because of my own experience without where i would you know show this vulnerability in a in a not truthful way and missed the part that actually was on the role which is saying you know this date mental ought to me tax. Feel very connecting. Can we can we do this again. I definitely related to this. Because i liked during this period. That was doing like the cereal dating. I had this guy friend who was married to another friend of mine and he never dated so he would give me the advice that is just like reach out after and tell them. I had a really good time. And i was like i will never do that. Leagues i was following the rules. Like you don't know because you're not in today's day dig world like blah blah. You know like totally discounted his advice. Which i should have listened to and then like i think like years later is when i started just like dot give a crap a little more like similar to what you said just like be more authentic of like how i'd be with friends and kind of try to play by these rules and i think like saying stuff like that gives permission for the other person to then become vulnerable themselves in it and i think we've talked about this you kind of alluded to it. This game of relationship chicken where like both people are like one foot in one foot out. And if they don't get assigned from the other person just no one acts like i went on a date the other day and i was like i could go either way on the swan like i'm like kind of impartial to it and he probably set the same since then.

01:00:01 - 01:05:00

Nothing's really happened. So it's like this game of impartialness. I think is almost like the worst thing that we do absolutely anything. It's because we have so many options out there so we wait for this magical me cute story where you lock is in the second you see each other. You make this instantaneous decision. Were you quote quote. Just no end. I think that relationships aren't actually built that way. Think of how many friends you have that took hours of time and investment. Actually get that closeness. It wasn't like you met them in. Were instantly like oh my god this versus best friend and i just know and it's i can feel it everywhere i mean. I don't know of anybody who talks about other connections in their life and yet we're looking for that on dates and so. I think that indifference is actually probably a space of being healthy. But people aren't following up because Like well if they're that interested they can. I think the other thing we do. Is we tell people to go on dates with multiple people in the wait for exclusivity will how are you investing If you're just dating this whirlwind of people. And i certainly during the phase that i that i that pre existed kind of change. I was doing the same thing. So i go on three days a week and i don't know how you can possibly invest in. Everyone starts to merge together and it actually is a form of creating wall where that training to go on multiple dates. Fill your man funnel which is advice that's given to women quite frequently way of being avoided and putting up walls in its way to supposedly prevent pain because the minute you might feel pain somebody else is going to be there and then you can just ignore it. I don't think it's healthy actually personally So after i shifted inserted really getting into my emotions and practicing awareness in learning emotional skills. I serving very direct with men that even if it was a first date. That was the only date i was going to go on. Play that through to the end. No man ever had an issue with but that way. I focused on that particular that particular relationship. Maybe it was the day. That's okay because tinder is constantly refilling itself so there wasn't a hurry to sort of have three dates in the in the queue in case one didn't workout while if that didn't work out at tender bucket could refill itself. I could go on a date tonight if to tender. It's not difficult to get dinner dates. So i think that that mentality of of scarcity is almost built by having that beckett. Let's hold that thought. Because i want to get back into this especially how can recognize if something were doing is a product of dating trauma versus how truly feel so. Let's hold that thought. We have a special message from our sponsor. We'll be right back. Okay before we get into that. We just wanna think cloud paper for making this episode happen. Not all toilet. paper is created. equal cloud. Paper is made from bamboo which generates at least thirty percent less greenhouse gas emissions compared to tree line toilet paper but is comfy you ask okay maybe tmi but hell yada it's super soft also superstrong hallo reply and lint free instead of getting zaidi from sold out toilet paper you can get cloud paper delivered right to your door and never run out with subscription options to fit your needs. Your order will be shipped free of charge. Try it and cancel. Anytime cloud papers already low cost but if you use code you get fifteen percent off your first order just go to cloud paper dot co and use the code dateable to get fifteen percent off that's cloud paper dot. Co with a code dat ab l. e. to get fifteen percent off if you'll great it's sustainable delivered to your door and less than a dollar parole with our code. But i do want to get back to this idea. Because i think dating multiple people could be a product of dating trauma if it doesn't feel natural to you and you feel like you're forcing yourself to do it. That is a product of you nodding not wanting to feel hurt and abandoned and not wanting to form deeper connections so applying it to ourselves. How can we recognize the difference between something we're doing. That is a product of dating trauma versus how we truly authentically appeal. I think trauma lives in our brain as some sort of heightened state so we've all had that moment after dates when we call friends and we're agitated. Were in her head. We don't actually feel calm and you may not even actually register the idea that you're upset but that's a form of not actually being in your body so your nervous system is registering. Not as and so. I think any activity or behavior is happening from that state of frenetic.

01:05:00 - 01:10:11

Energy is going to be a kind of trauma in. So that's where we actually throw those rules on top. I've had lots of conversations with people about initiating dates or following up. And i love what julie said which is how are you naturally. I personally am a social connector. I call people. I organize things that just made nature and so in that frenzied panicked head. Space anxiety head space. I was throwing dating rule on top of ever call a man as i was indeed when i learned that when it gets reinforced over and over reagan and then i noticed it was those racing thoughts where i didn't have the skill set in those days to check the facts so i would go into well. He's not gonna want me. I'm not going to be appealing. I'm going to be needy in. There's still to this day. Those narratives still pop up in my head. But i recognize now that they are in my head. The racing thoughts. They're anxious thoughts end when we're actually behaving with authenticity. Our nervous system feels super calm. And i think that we're often confounded about which is which because we're told that chemistry feels like sparks. It feels exciting. It's nerves so i was really confused between those because unlike the frenetic sentence means that i really like him in the exciting's supposed to be but i wasn't actually able to ground into what my body actually would feel like if it was in a restful connected com state where i could actually calmly without this weird narrative in my head really really like to talk to this person. I'm gonna call him or i'm going to text him so i think it's that's why have a body practice do yin yoga re day to practice the feeling of being calm connected to myself and i didn't do that for eating purposes but it has laid a foundation in my awareness about what com connected. Me feels like it. When i jumped outside of that in the dating context. I'm doing something. That's not commerce connected. Which means i'm doing it. From that place of micro trauma right so yeah. I feel like we've had these lot of conversations lately like how you know when it's your own stuff versus like the external person putting it on essentially and i hate like blaming someone else but sometimes people just aren't a good fit for you absolutely and they bring out certain sides of you like they're just not ready in it's clear it's like coming through as ambiguity or whatever so like how do you separate like releasing your own anxiety. What cups today. Day versus like distinguishing like. This just isn't the right fit. I think that a good fit for me is someone who doesn't trigger that anxiety state and that's a statement that it's way easier said than done because i do get triggered. I do get anxious than i do. Still have to really overcome not sensation of the dating trauma in the first place but in a broad sense i think that a good positive connection is somebody who and we're not talking about a first or second date here but a good positive connection is somebody who i can share my feelings with and work through that trigger and a lot of what i'm calling a triggers going be a micro trigger. It's not going to be something right. Can't speak to them for four days. It's just something where i can say. Feeling a little anxious about this. Or i didn't prefer that word used in so i need a lot of very open communication. Otherwise i go into my head and getting pissed about it and i go into this rutted powder of dating trauma where i start making up stories and i start going back to these trained narratives but at this point i can kind of catch myself so a good partner for me is somebody who's going to actually help me recover from in heal from that. As opposed to feeling triggered all the time with no outlet. And i think it's a nurturing kind of safety the same way a mother picks baby. Who's crying and it feels calming. If a stranger picks up a baby the baby is not gonna feel calmed by the same activity. Though i look for that sensation when i wake up in the morning of desma nervous system feel calm and literally actually go through that process with myself to have that sense awareness. Because i really became aware during this process of how often i was triggered in with look to that emotionally unsafe person for support or for conversation communication connection but actually would just end up re-triggered or feel unheard or feel unresponded to. There wasn't any sense of nurturing that accompanied that so. It's very difficult because they think the things that were trained to look for our society are fun in common interests send chemistry in the spark but the spark actually for me is not healthy.

01:10:11 - 01:15:11

That spark a little fire of anxiety inside. So i'm actually looking for the opposite. I'm looking for somebody. Who when i wake up. I feel like a cat. That's perjury as opposed fire. That's burning lunch. They save trauma. Begets more trauma. Because that's what you recognize so you'd be go on almost addicted to that in your body and you feel like something's wrong if you don't feel traumatized in a relationship and that's why there's so much self sabotaging behavior out there and toxic Heavier so how can we stop ourselves in our tracks before we carry on with this kind of bad dating behavior again. My favorite quote is we're all each other's consequences so we gotta stop that kind of behavior with ourselves if we don't ever wanna feel that again with other people so like you talked about the triggers. What are other ways that we can just stop before we react. I think we really do need to have personal practices that build emotional health emotional safety builds bodily awareness so that we can identify. Is that a pit. May stomach. Or those multiplies things like that. So that actually really does come back to doing at work on ourselves and then also surrounding ourselves with other people who are doing that work. There's language that comes along with that. I could pose something very personal on the board in our group right now and i would get met with compassion and understanding. I would definitely find somebody else who related to that experience in so pulling ourselves out of those scenarios of the toxic dating groups in the toxic friends in the nervousness always amped up and actually the more stress we have in our lives. I think the more we need to really have these active practices of looking for these emotional safety skills. Self regulation skills co-regulation skills self awareness skills. And what does it actually feel like. Because i don't think that most of us know i certainly didn't and i agree with you. Where my baseline was like a cat on the ceiling in so dot for me was just normal and then you added a little extra fancy dating. Zayed's he does he. S this is it and it ended felts intoxicating. And then i felt like i couldn't actually discern i would hear things like michaela. Severe must haves in dealbreakers. While i know how to apply that at all because i didn't have that baseline sense of the suit. It feels like to take care of me. This is what it feels like temperature myself. This is what it feels to be safe in my body. I have i have. I actually old school i handwrite might to do. Let me to play. Yes it's it's it's a lot of interest generating every couple years younger just in on the left side of my piece of paper. In my block. Lettering written with the marker. I have a list of activities that are all optional. But things like taking bath reading going for a walk. These are things that used to bore me but there are things that i actually need to be like. This is what it feels. Like to have calm nervous system and i make sure that i do a bunch of things from not less and that's super boring but it really puts us interest in what what that sensitive of neutrality feels like. I used to have a fashion executive job in new york city. Which is the most anxious place on the planet. I think the humming zayed's into the air you breathe it in the subway and you're like in so my sense of what anxiety was had. You asked me now. I have no anxiety all. So how was i to actually know what anxiety was versus calm and i really had to move into these practices To know what it is. And then i start to really look for people mirror that in a healthy body that myself i love it. I think like bringing it full circle to what you said earlier. I think the problem is not in touch with our emotions. Like we think that like there's a certain anxiety but that's not like relative to yourself. Were talking about earlier when ghosting happens. You're just complaining. You're not like really taking in how you're feeling with something and i think for myself like and this is ingrained in society is like it's your told you don't want to act needy that saying if you're like a feeling anxious to me and a hetero normative relationship is like the worst thing you can do and we actually had an interview recently with connor beaten and he are you all around be completely. He's great ed. He was like like it was something it was basically asking scenario if that was a sign that someone was emotionally unavailable in basically turned it on to me and with like what are you feeling with this.

01:15:11 - 01:20:01

How are you feeling in you. Need to essentially communicate like. Hey all i'm interested in you. But i'm not interested in a relationship that makes me feel anxious and i did his advice and i feel like i went from even just putting that out there in like asserting yourself made me like not anxious city or so liberating and i actually was met with compassion. Back from the person that i shared this with like. I think in my mind i was like this. He's probably not even a reply to it. Nothing but like. I was pleasantly surprised by the compassion. I was met back. And i think there is a detriment that you're free to do that. And that's when the anxiety builds and that's when the trauma bill because you don't ever like share your truth and put it out there. I agree. I learned for myself that although i had been taught to repress all of that into never share it i got the opposite reaction i have never once been met with anything negative when i asked men questions. Hey can i ask you what happened. Why didn't we go under date. They all answered it. We had lovely conversations. It ended well. It was never met with aggression or anything those uncomfortable when i would tell men i've just met someone i wanna see where this goes. I got back mostly notes of. Wow that was really great of you to tell me. Good luck with that and many of them even said if it doesn't work out keep me posted that is not what our cultural narratives suggest is about to happen and so i started dating from that place of compassionate self compassion and really being person that i would want to date where. I don't wanna get ghosted. So i'm not going to go to other people. I don't want other people going on dates with me and going home and having all the things -iety so you know i'm happy to answer any questions in. I'm gonna actually give people reasons. Why don't wanna proceed forward and we can do this in a kind compassionate way. Not fake kindness not trained womanly kindness. But actually really speaking the truth and it completely neutralizes anxiety so i will sometimes wake up. It's kind of free floating anxiety. In the i sit down like okay. What is happening here. In the second i actually can put words to it. It evaporates if it involves someone else. I just go tell them because that is the truth. That is what i'm feeling. And i haven't had any experiences where somebody says god. You're so needy what's wrong with you. It's tends to be very connecting because otherwise we're carrying around this kind of bubble of spikes of anxiety and they can feel that so. We think we're hiding it. And we think we're processing it or rethink were concealing something but were actually walking night energetic connection and we're blocking the relationship from develop and we do that because of trauma we think that a relationship is only good when there is -iety and we mistaken anxiety for the butterflies and for the sparks but in actuality i love to go into takeaways. Because what we're saying is we have to connect with our feelings and know what's good and what's bad for you so anxiety. You have to know that it's bad for you. How do i not make myself feel anxious in if you don't feel anxious in a relationship or when you first start dating. Someone doesn't mean that it's boring doesn't mean that it's weird it just means it's going pretty well and you don't need to strive for that anxiety so i think my biggest takeaway is showing your self compassion putting words to your feelings and connecting to the feelings that are good for you and connecting to the feelings that are bad for you and i love having some sort of ritual where self care is prioritized may wear you take a few hours in a week to sit alone with your thoughts. Self care doesn't actually need to be a bath right. It doesn't need to be the spa. It just be sitting in a corner in your room being alone with your thoughts and saying how are you feeling. What are you feeling these days and is this a good feeling or a bad feeling. So that's my biggest takeaway from this conversation but my second takeaway is. We almost have to accept the fact that everything we do today is a result of this buildup of relationship and dating trauma we've experienced in the past in the only way to move forward is to reconcile with those past traumas By biggest takeaway is to feel all the feels like regardless how insignificant. It sounds like i feel like. I won't minimize it because i've definitely done that too. It's like the minimization. Because you don't feel like it's a big thing. It's only a week longer. Whatever like should happen. You're allowed to feel however you feel from it and i think this happens with men and women. This is like a women agnostic ie member one of our past couples. We talked to sammy. David i remember him actually like saying to her like. Hey i'm feeling anxiety because of pass shitty people. I've tasted that have left me on bed and this has happened and i really like you and i don't want this to happen again. That is vulnerability.

01:20:01 - 01:25:01

And that's not necessarily disclosing all your deep dark secrets in life story. But it's not. It's having the courage to put out like where you're at with someone so they can meet you and if they don't meet you then you have information that you know that like where you stand with this person and like we were saying before it's like. How do you measure relationships on the barometer of make you feel more opposed to like the checklists that you have if you know ultimately that like you want a relationship you feel calm or you feel connected in. That's not happening with that person like that is. It's better to find that out earlier or at least see signs of things than just bottle. Everything up in never give a person a ability to react either way less tied jest at all right now. Jeddah's eddie last parting words of wisdom or advice that you would give eddie. Were going through this right now. I think really look to create community because we're trying to foster connection. Mirroring what we want is going to be a very useful skill will surround yourself with the kind of people that you would want it to eight or one being relationship with and look for that support from them most of us. Don't wanna be around a bunch of people that are not in moaning and complaining and whining victimizing themselves and staying stuck in that so join our facebook group and building luck to people that are actually doing this work and mirroring the kind of behavior that you want to see. I have what. I call the gold standard. So there's somebody in my life who actually really embodies the kind of person in the kind of way that i want to be treated and a long ways to removing scarcity. Goes along ways to. Can you believe that it can be there but also a practice. The skill set of being in relationships. The kind of relationships. I want be an and those are not anxious. Traumatized walled off relationships. So i think that's the most important thing that i would do is create that community and foster other kinds of relationships that are as coming in nurturing and kind and connected as you want in a dating partner. I love that. Doctors sleep promoted. Because i feel like people often that are single or like well. If i'm not gonna meet someone there. It's not worth my time. And i do think like just forming community in making connections with new people whether it's romantic or dot like even if it's totally platonic tonic. Even with like people that you have no sexual attraction to because of your sexuality or whatever it may be like i think that teaches you the skills of how to you know small v. become vulnerable people and really like practice those relationships skills and building that intimacy in a way. That's like going to translate to a romantic partner. Also i think we also can see evidence as the kind of person want. I am very public and vocal in group about some of the amazing men up ben exist in our group and so when women say well. There's no good guys out there. That's a limiting belief but it also isn't true if you wanna see what good guys say in thank in do and what they believe in how they behave there literally Clusters in our group. Then there's no shortage of them and they exist the real. I've spoken to some on the phone or on facetime. Their legitimate people are happy hours. Their faces are there. And i think that's really really important because then our nervous system and our whole body and soul in our brain actually realized that this is not kind of one person in every city and every man or woman for themselves has got to go find the only one good person or that literally went. Says there's none and in our community there's tons and so we can practice building those relationships with people right there just room that doesn't have to. There's there isn't actually the best to my knowledge. I don't think we have any couples have come out of our group yet so it's not a singles group. Were picking each other up right the difference. Which is why. I like it. I like marketplace. Yeah i think what you said is interesting too because men have also said the same about women. And i think like you said something really interesting earlier that i do want to cut it just end on. This note is like sometimes. It takes a while to see the trauma in sometimes. I've even acknowledged other people's posts of feeling this trauma that i feel like i've over com per se but then sometimes new dating situations brings it up again. You're like the actually seeing that like maybe it isn't fully resolved or you're seeing it come out with someone else in you're like oh this is a reminder of how i once felt in like if you feel like you've had the coping skills to overcome it then you can link hey at four and it helps someone else or if not you can kind of work through it. A little more even becoming aware.

01:25:01 - 01:30:09

That might be a trigger for you. I think we talk about self care and self love these days. The reality is we cannot learn relational skills through on our own self. Love and self care are important. Yes but we don't actually know what relational skills we have until that's tested through relationship. Because i could sit in apartment all day long all self love and self care about hashmira feeling good in calm and doing all my practices and then i've had scenarios where this is real somebody that i'm debating says something. It's one word in all of a sudden. My nervous system is often some other plane. That has nothing to do without person in dots trigger. And i'm not gonna trigger that in myself. I'm not gonna sit on my couch in place video of this one word and often. I'm not even aware of what it is. But but we just had this response. So we can't learn relational skills on our own. There is no such thing as healing. I see this narrative a lot. We can heal. And there's this idea that it's like we become this healed person in only then. Should we date. This is gonna be messy for all of we're gonna get triggered and traumatized and etcetera the relational skill set comes from being in relationship. I think that's so important that you said that. Because i definitely had that sinking moment that i'm like do this podcast. I feel like i've come so far. Like why have. I still feel this way and i think maybe the word is in overcome like maybe there is nothing to overcome like the reality is that this trauma exists in becoming aware of it. Then you can like the learn how to like calm nervous system. Feel your body feel the feels like process and have those conversations. Maybe it's unrealistic to say like it's going to completely ever go away. Yeah it's not about fixing. It's about lessening lessening. The pain lessening the effect and lessening. All the assholes who are doing all this bad dating behavior yourself included. If you are one of those this magical groupie speak of janice. I just wanna give a in case. You're not a group is called love. I can't see if you've never listened to this dog gas for name of love in the time of corona later. It's a great place to be. We're not just saying that because we saw the group. We truly are saying that because we have met the most fantastic compassionate self-aware people ever and it's just a great environment to be an especially right now but janice for you specifically people want to Sample some of your writings and they wanted to get to know you more. Where can they find you. The porto for everything on the internet is through my business page. Which is my body could turn. And then dot unfolds the links to my elephant journal writings some of which were around health fitness. Some of which horon dating some of which horon single parenting so have a little bit for everybody. And i also have my links on there for my facebook instagram and clubhouse Issues by what is now So you can use my website to sort of find me at But mostly i either go under my name or my business. I think what i'm learning. Just how much more in your body like. I think we're always taught like how everything you're gonna figure out today is all about your your mindset in your minds space in your brain and the logic and i think there is a lot of that rests in the body so i'm so glad that you are helping people kind of get in touch with their bodies more and for our listeners. While you're online looking at genesis stuff that doesn't sound right now. More about janice you can quickly go over to apple podcast and give us a five star rating to you know while you're online. Kill two birds with one stone. Yeah today i realize. I don't want it to kill birds we should say you. Can you know touch two birds with one. Something like play with to save them. Yeah save two birds with one. So i like that better right. Why are you trying to kill. Two birds like what did they do to you. It's internet poly-amorous. Yeah can have multiple there you go. I'll just just leave us five star the. I don't overcomplicate things just going on. Go to websites you don't have to devote and And say that you are monogamous with any of the websites. We really appreciate you. Janice not just as a guest on her show but also for everything you've done with us for us for our members. You're just this goddess that i feel like no to they want to emulate you learn from you and the first time we talked to janice like really wanna one we were like who who has your back janice like who is taking care.

01:30:10 - 01:32:05

She's like just me just me that. So you're a pit me of just like the most independent and self aware person out there so we really appreciate you. Thank you for sharing your story you about dating rama with us and we can't wait to learn more about you as we move forward with the crew. Yes a dateable. Podcast is part of the frolic podcast network. Find more podcast love at frolic dot media slash. Podcast want to continue the conversation. I follow us on instagram facebook and twitter with the handle at a podcast tag. An any post with a hashtag. Stay dateable and trust us. We look at all those posts then head over to our website dateable podcasts dot com there. You'll find all the episodes as well. As articles videos in our coaching service. With vetted industry experts you can also find our premium y series where we dissect analyze and offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums for also downloadable for free. On spotify apple podcasts. Google play overcast stitcher radio and other podcast platforms. Your feedback is valuable to us. So don't forget to leave us a review and most importantly remember to stay dateable children's national hospital in washington. Dc improves children's health by developing better treatments and technologies. As one of the top children's hospitals in the nation we take on the most complex rare and life threatening conditions because all children deserve a healthy future and with our new pediatric focus research and innovation campus. Opening a spring. We'll be able to generate and share even more discoveries. Learn more at children's national dot. org slash innovation.