Season 10 Episode 17: Racism in Dating

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The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world. Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of dateable a show all about modern dating. I, just I'm I'm. Speechless about what is happening in the world right now and I'm sure you guys are as well at home. Just maybe not speechless is the right word but I think. Are you a shot Kuhn? Are you feeling a little disturbed, are you? Are you angry or sad? Are you upset when you get the chance? Let us know how you're feeling at home because I sure know how I feel, which is a lot of internal turmoil, I definitely just woke up very sad both like Saturday and Sunday I think after the week it sunk in and I felt like overwhelming sadness when I woke up on Saturday. That was kind of. Of how I would describe it and just I don't know. I spent a lot of time talking today to various friends, including one of our best friends that is black and she went to like some of the protests in DC and was more like the peaceful one in cars and stuff and I think no matter your opinion on protests at the ultimate end of this, though there's just this feeling of hopelessness that has come from it, and just the sense that like things are not equal, and it's really shining in these last couple months. I think we've known that for a while, but I think with corona virus like. An uneven distribution on people of color, and just all like the police brutalities that have happened. It's just yeah. It's really sad to everything about it. And I want to say his name George Floyd I want to say his name over and over again because I think we need to recognize that this is reality of of America and I've come to the realization that I've just been neutral for a long because it didn't pertain to me when I read the description, a privilege which I have on my phone right now because it's a constant reminder of the privilege I experienced even though I am not white. White American privilege is when you think something is not a problem because it's not a problem team. Personally and I feel that statement quite a bit this week because I think the privilege, I've experiences exactly that that if it doesn't pertain to me than I don't need to get involved to idol need to voice my opinion, but what I'm hearing this week is if we don't get involved especially the people who this doesn't pertain to then this will never be resolved. This will always be an issue for Americans, and unfortunately it has come to what we see today and I'm looking outside my window. Julie. Demonstrators outside my window, who are peacefully protesting right now? The last night I saw guns I people were out. Looting of the storefronts were shattered. What I see! The News Right now is George. Floyd's name tied to the violent riots and that's not what we need to do right now. Those two should not be in the same sentence together. Right I want. I'm sick of seeing the to even on the news. Headlines is like we need to address the core issue here, which is racism in America that we all have inside of US absolutely in like there's actually really. Piece by Chris how you see and was basically talking about like the tale of two cities that is America today, and just how we live drastically different lives and I think I'm with you you A. It's like I definitely grew up in like a more sheltered environment that was very racially segregated Massachusetts, like Boston's of very segregated city and I think it's challenging because people don't know what they don't know in a lot of times when they don't know what they're doing is. Is Wrong I agree with you. It's like when you're not saying something that is wrong, but you don't know that and I. Think when I've been listening to been just in like a deep hole of videos and written work, and all that today I think what's been loud and clear. The minority needs the majority to speak because one. It's like that's the only way change will happen, and then also is just like everyone's tired and burnt out and really dislike struggling with the. It's hard to do both at the same time. Right so I, think. Yeah, like as someone. That's why I need to like.

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Make sure that I'm not just being like. Oh, I'm not racist, but I'm anti-racists and I think that's really what comes out as we have to use our platforms. You and I built this platform to share different perspectives learn, and I want us. US to use this platform to make very clear where where we stand, which is, we are absolutely anti-racism we are. We want to fight racism, and we want to fight the innate biases that we have in ourselves as well and I recognize what I think, and what I grew up thinking and how I can combat, but I also have to say that I'm just trying. Trying to find ways to relate to what's going on, because even though it's not about me, it's still that's the only way I could figure it outright like what? What are black Americans feeling today and I, although I will never know at least I know. This one bit is like you know that feeling. We've all been bullied in score. A lot of us have been. been bullied at school so worst moment it's not when you get bullied or being called names. It's when you get bullied and your friends don't help you or they don't stand up for you or defend you, and that is the point that is being made right now. It's not the perpetrator. It's not like a faulting The police officer which they absolutely are at fault. Fault, but the core of the problem is. We're not standing with our black brothers and sisters. Yeah, that's where we need to stand up right now is like we need to show that we are. We are here to fight together. Absolutely, it's crazy because it's something we've seen on the podcast to like even before this I mean not to the same degree obviously, but we. We had episodes about like dating as black women and sexual racism and stuff that was set on those episodes shocking in twenty twenty I. Mean I. Think we've come A. There's definitely been progress with racism for sure like since our parents generation, but it's not the level of progress that needs to be happening in the world today like the fact that there's just such mistreatment. Mistreatment and all of that and only blamed ignorance so much like I think there's ignorance and not knowing what to say in some situations, versus like outright saying things that are offensive that you know wrong, but like the fact that it's dating apps like the fact that it's everywhere, it just means that it's the mindset overall that needs to shift and I think lake for. For people that like when I was reading some of the stuff today like for people that are parents that are listening to this podcast because we do parents that listen I think this is where it starts. It's like I was listening to this one woman that was talking about like how her children like not bullied, but you know these little tiny micro bully `ISMs. Like Oh why does your hair look that way and it's like kids than they would describe as Nice in the problem is that they just don't understand and I think it really starts with parents like showing that like everyone is beautiful, and everyone should be love, no matter their shape their size like what they look like. They're color. All of that and I think that's where it really starts to make a big difference because I think every generation that comes in. In helps, but it's really like I'm in a way. I'm gloves. Protests like I know it's a mixed bag like we've talked about, but it doesn't lease. Bring awareness to what's happening and my friend. I was talking to our mutual friend. WHO's black? She mentioned like she just doesn't feel like this will do enough change, and it probably won't is the reality but I think the fact that it's making people that aren't black. That are in the majority or like I. I guess like this is okay to say, but like I feel like. Asian people are considered like the model like ethnicity right? It's like the model minority I am not saying that you don't face anything, but with corona virus. There is definitely a lot of hatred Tunisian so I think it brings to light that we all need to have each other's backs like you said earlier really. The intensity of the issue was made very clear to me. This week is that. That I face all sorts of discrimination, racist comments and behaviors throughout my life, but I've never felt that my life was right. Yeah, and I think that's the extent that we all need to understand is I. Sure we've all been made fun of war a been stereotyped, but when you wake up every day fearing for your life that takes to a whole new level on. That's where they they really need our support to to say. This is not okay, this is. Not Okay and I also want to say that just because Julian. I have a podcast and just because so and so has a show on TV. Just because so-and-so wrote, a book doesn't mean that we know everything a night I think this is where I. have to just this up and say we are just learning ourselves as well. The only logical step right now is to educate ourselves on what is happening. Learn about the history, and we don't know that we don't know everything and that we can learn to know more.

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Yeah, well, one of the things that I read today. That was really assuring that was like okay, you don't. Don't have to get it all right today. As long as you are trying to get there, and you're trying to show support, and that's like the best thing that people can be doing right now. Just showing up and accepting people in loving people, and I think Lake Yeah with this podcast that's been something that's been so core to our mission, and that's been in the dating and relationship realm, but it goes way deeper than that right. It's like humanity as a whole. It's not just relationships with each other. It's relationships to our society and all of that. Yeah, know when we went to south by southwest last week or it lasts. Last week when we south by South, West last year, there were so many panels about diversity inclusion, yeah! And will we really took away was if you want your institution of you, want your life to to embrace diversity. You got a live that diversity, which means look at the friends around you are. Do they represent not just different colors? Do they represent different perspectives? Yup, and that's diversity. That's living and breathing diversity. You can't just say add like one token black friend, one token, Indian friend, and then one token. Republican front like that's. Diversity you gotta live it because you have to have these conversations and I am glad that we're at a point. Where at least we have a platform to have these conversations interview have a platform. Use Your influence to speak up. This is the time to do it yet and I mean relating fascinating, because we can't forget why we're here. We are here for the dateable podcast, but one of the things that makes us challenge. Our views in grow as people to hear different perspectives like if we heard from just all. All like White Women that were twenty five to twenty eight, for example right like we would have a echo chamber of the same idea in perceptions in a lot of times we'll throw on guests here and this is not only do with is just like like point of view and people like. Why did you have that guest like babe weren't right like what they said were like. No the point. Is that even if you don't agree with them, there's something about learning listening to different people and that's what makes like. Experience for yourself and really gives you the tools and viewpoints to go out in this world and figure out what works for you, if you just have one view in one way of knowing people and I actually think this goes one hundred percent back to the issue at hand is allowed the problem is that people in certain parts of this country just are around all white people, and they just see the news for example, and that's the problem is like they're not like rooted in reality. It's rooted in like and perception, which it's a shame like I. Wish people had more outlets. They could get diverse perspectives because I think that would really help. Humanize everyone there, similar values and And similar like things that everyone's going through no matter what your race or color. That's what empathy is. Yeah, so we're GONNA. Do a little different this week. Originally, we had the feature of sex toys with Lord Carlos will save that for next week, but what we did is a compilation of a couple of our past episodes, so we clipped a couple areas, and you can listen to. The full episodes will leave them at the end in in the show notes to, but will we wanted to really focus on some of our pass black guests just the struggles that they've shared with us about dating in modern times as black people. Who so again this goes into everyday life. Dating like I think like if you're a person of color, you're probably GonNa, be nodding your head and being like I get, but then if you're not hopefully like I know for me, it definitely helped to just hear. People struggles in really just give us a new man's time where looking at dating in what other people might be going through so absolutely. Let's hear from you. Lead sentence of fire to kick it off with some of the struggles that they face as dating as black women in modern times. I know. We've talked about dating as Asian person in modern times, and also the fetishes that come with that. We talked about yellow fever. We also talked about the white horse, but we have some as in on twitter Her name is Alita and she said you know there hasn't been an episode about black fetishism in racism experience while dating a black person I would kill for a breakdown on the and share she. Shot? Herself by. Basically. brought a friend along. Fire is also on the phone Do Girls Want to say a quick? Hello, hi, in ruin.

00:15:02 - 00:20:03

A little background on both of them. You'll eat currently in Cincinnati. She's moving soon. She grew up in New York City in her early twenties. She single and ready to mingle I'm guessing. May that let's leave it at that. Supply US curly living in Atlanta. She's originally from Stamford Connecticut. I know what that's like. Medicare for. Leaving? Twenty six years old and currently in a monogamous relationship. Okay so I love it, we have we have some of whose single and the someone who's in a committed relationship. Talking about what it's like dating in modern times is a black woman. Let's just go very general. I isn't like dating as a black woman these days. I don't Safai over do we start. I know what it boils down to. Is that we we have all struggles that everyone else has to deal with in general, but of course they're going GonNa be particular things in addition to that, we have to think about and navigate borough so dealing with not only sexism, but the racism on top of each other in I. Don't want to speak for Black Women Black Sam's but in the conversations I've had with peers in general the conversations you see online when you bring people together, there are shared experiences of being treated differently because of your race. As a black woman, the way that you look as a black woman, the different skin tones in hair textures that we have just we, we share so many common stories of things that men have said to us about our appearance or their preferences for dating. Okay Sherry out caring so. Those. I would say I'm tinder. You'll get a lot of messages where it's like I've never been with a black girl before or they'll call you like hey. Beautiful, black goddess or Princess. And how do you feel when you get messages like that? Turn Yeah on large Iro with I mean I can totally relate because I get those messages as well like you're a I've never had an Asian before like what fucking buffet. Are Not here for you to try. Different backgrounds and cultures or not for you to sample. That's not the exists for so my question is. Do you think that comes out of racism? Or is that just ignorance? The common conversations that we pad are all. They're not necessarily centered around racism because a lot of times, there's not really a malicious intent to it, but there's there's been a sensitivity. Will Racism in and of itself is ignorance, so I would have to say yeah. Whether, it's intended to be negative. Like. It's not about the intent. It's about the impact, so if you're saying something that is an impact racist. It is racism so I WANNA. Bring this back to a few statistics that I've seen online. I guess I don't have the exact statistics, but there's been a lot of studies. Reports on marginalized groups who have the worst time with online dating, and those would Asian men and black women black women. Why do you think Asian men and Black Women Fall into this group? Stereotypes that are associated with those groups of people. What are those the day? We'll for black women in particular were hard to deal with and we're allows. We're not very. Aggressive is a good one. We have our own mind. We do what we want. As. A in two thousand eighteen, we saw the rise of the conversation around Asian on identity in media in I think buzzfeed I duNno, which platform did, but they did a Asian. Men are sexy to type of campaign. Because a lot of oftentimes like as males have not been portrayed positively in western side like in our media at all as potential love interest there, either side takes. They're not visible at all young so speaking because I can only speak from the Asian side. A lot of my Asian male friends will say you know it's hard for us dating because not only do non-asians the. Data's because we're not masculine. Enough based on media stereotypes, but also our own kind of want to date as they go outside of of of our race. Do you feel the same way or do you? How do you feel about that for you? So the first thing that I will say that encompasses that experience for black women is every block I'm GonNa. Say every black girl has had to ask at some point in their life. I wonder if they like black girls. Oh, I remember doing this. I was talking to one of friends. He's really cute. Can Do you think he likes black girls because you knew? Knew. You'd never get to just walk in the world and think that you are desirable. It doesn't matter how you look at the bathroom. You could be you know on point. Your eyebrows on league outfit is bit, and you know that you're beautiful, but you still have to ask yourself. Would you have to ask staff for Black Men to? Yes, yes, so you.

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You will see a black men, and the like I wonder if he dates black women. Yeah, really why. Why is that? You see it you don't you don't even have to ask and you see. The Black Boys not interact with the girls to the capacity. They do their peers of other races. You never really see them interacting with you or they never. Never have an interest in you and I'm not the type of person to chase. What doesn't want me like checking for people who check for you, so you just know and often it's expressed in media. It's expressed online like land I've had people I know who people like I've heard them say. I don't like black girls and they are black is A. A look that the media portrays says she should look a certain way or is more of a status thing. Is it like you have a wife who is not of your same race than somehow you're elevated in status. That's actually what I wanted to bring it back to. Because I was GONNA. Comment on how for a long time for a lot of? Of men of color, particularly black men, having a white partner is a status symbol I'm just a couple of years ago in artists did piece performance piece where he was wearing white women as scarves in order to convey this message of how a lot of people use them as status symbols of like look, I have a teen such while teams growth escaped. All these. Transcended my blackness I. Now have a white partner. This, this is like this is a symbol of my power interesting. Do you think that has any 'cause? I know we talked about how black women are often seen as marginalized black men are almost elevated in media like insecurity TV show like there's this whole scene about like how these two white women really wanted to like have a black man. Like do you see? Elevate that's more fetish side the. Size for the color of their skin for like the the Mandingo stereotype, all these tropes that our society has placed on them like this. Alpha, Batman and trapping them into this idea that there's only one way to be masculine or be a black man. It's more stifling than it is empowering, so I want to bring this back to some of your personal experiences. Because what I'm hearing is you're either experiencing meeting? Somebody who may not date black women or meeting? Someone who fetish is is dating black women. So how do you navigate the dating scene Safai? You're in a relationship. How were you able to navigate these two polarizing effects, so my boyfriend? His wife we're. Going to start off by making that absolutely clear, and that's going to pay a lot of my experiences here. I am not the first person of color that he dated I am the first black person then he stated. And, so he's more liberal. He he grew up in a really conservative family in the deep south, but like he has a set of experiences growing up then going to college and meet in the people that he's met that he's kind of a better one. There's woke agent it's are we have a lot of conversations about these things, but like a lot of his friends tell him he heard. They're really surprised when they're spacing, votto and they're like. Wow, you don't seem like the type of dude today to black girl. In kind of joking kind of way like not in Mica. You don't seem like the kind of guy in a hostile way, but like Oh, wow, i? Didn't expect this year. The whitest I I know kind of status, and so it kind of sparked a conversation where it's like every time we see an interracial couple in public which he notices them now I'm. CECE my guide link. So. Interesting about this conversation is that a lot of my non black male funds have this St I dunno stereotype were this myth. That black women don't date outside the race. They're like I. don't even approach black women because I just assumed they wouldn't even look my way. If you look at the statistics, it's not wrong, but it's a sweeping generalization. Black women due date outside their as just not to the degree that black men do, but it's never good to make assumptions. Back to my original question is. How do you date successfully then at When you first Safai when you first met your boyfriend, I'm sure you have suspicions right. So what are those conversations you had to have to get over that I met James on Tumblr that was key, because the only way that that conversation would have started was if we both swiped right so dating apps to me, the tender and the bumble work game changing because eliminates a lot of the. Hey, this is my classmate. He's kind of cute. Let me ask my friend for friend. Let me kind of like wink at them and hope that he likes. It makes it clear from the beginning I am interested in. You're interested and we can start having this conversation. Early in your relationship. Did you have the discussion of? Have you dated Black Women Before That's a good question I.

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Don't think that was something. I ever brought up point blank so much. It was an extension of story of light. The first person that something picture was like Oh i. didn't know your girlfriend. Lack and entity like continue to just feel like well. It's not the first summit to Princeton color. other it would just open up the conversation that we would be talking about anyway, and so those types of details would come out because there are relevant to the conversation so. You live in Atlanta because in Atlanta. That's the Black Mecca. Do you get any sort of reverse discrimination? Comments criticism from from the black community. I will say that this is a good place to be. took couple in terms of like not getting weird looks on the street. Saying that I have seen a lot of interational mingling in Atlanta it does. Make sense that that kind of thing would happen here because I mean it's. It's a growing city with a lot of translates plant from the different parts of the country in the world and so Not to say it doesn't happen at all, yeah? Like I feel like those are things that are happening not to my face. Okay, we have a guy that we spoke with that had dated a black woman, and we atop them about this experience it. He said that he actually felt like people saw him were woke after doing this. What are your thoughts on that? On now, that's. That's one of my fears. When it comes to eating outside of my race is being used as like it in this is why I'm really selected with my friendships, I never wanna be that black friend that white people use like. I have a black friends who? Don't want to be. The black girlfriend of the white guy uses his like well. I can't be racist. 'cause I'm dating a black person. It's like A. It's like a superpower. I never have fallen to that end, so people perceive US listen, you can be just as racist date. People of Color as you can. When you donate them, it doesn't matter and what about you because you're dating, you're single. So what do you do to filter man? Man So my challenge is trying to find someone who isn't racist is Sexist is like in the same direction as me, so I look at their profile, obviously look for red flags in the way that they communicate with me. I ask specific I drive the conversation so I can get a feel for their politics. Those are really important things to me. I need to understand where you stand on the spectrum of you know liberal to conservative in like whether or not we will buy, and so what I do is I often talk about myself like I. Bring Up my activism in college or the work that I. I, do young girls of color I talk about you know like because my work is based in race, so they're uncomfortable with that conversation I can tell that this is not gonna go well if we tried to pursue a relationship or go on more dates. Okay, and then what are some red flags that you can see right from the beginning other than politics? Their friend groups seeing like. Looking at photos of their friends in like what they do for for their interests like if I don't see a diverse group, that's a red flag for me because I need to know that you're having certain conversations with your peers in like I need to know that you've been exposed to different types of people who okay so friend groups would else for me based on like my profile and the fact that they can see my instagram. When I do in what I'm interested in what I talk about. People pretty much. Read themselves out so I. Don't get a lot of you know I don't have to sift that much. Do fine-tuning, but but you can right 'cause I'm speaking from girl girl iztok profiles before. Sometimes I'm like. By this guy, every ex girlfriend. He's had his Asian. That's a red flag to me. Yeah, that actually I. Do see that that a red flag to you. I've never had an experience where. I was one of several black women that someone had dated. So what are some examples of fetishism than that? You've seen like the other off-side. Those. Things tend to happen in the first few messages, so using to kind of like well so much for that, and then like blocked them. Give us some exams so I was seeing an African American boy back in between Sophomore, engineer of college, and it just goes back to like the types of comments that will hear from African American men about Black Women and he had told me that his dad said Oh. She's really pretty for Haitian girl and I was like what does that even? Even mean what does that even mean you could have just said I was pretty, but then it was like layered and interns of like the African diaspora of like now we're talking about my cultural identity as a Haitian woman in like you not expecting Haitian women to look like this, and what does that mean and all that kind of stuff? There's so many parallels with the Black Museum Asian. Community because I've dated Asian men whose families like Oh. She's really dark for an Asian like what what? This asked bars within different ethnic groups.

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It's all rooted in the idea that we think beauty supposed to be. The closest thing to the Eurocentric Standard and if you're not if you're not fair skinned and you don't have hair that looks like this. You're not beautiful. I had a cousin who we were talking about how he often dated African. American girls, a fair skin, and we asked him based on based on our skin tone, his sister and his other cousin. Who would you date? And he pointed to me and he said you're good any point. His other cousins said you're good. And then he pointed to his own sister, who is the same skin tone as him as his mother as many other people in his family and said you're too dark. Interested. In that's very real experience for a of black women I. Haven't had that experience necessarily, so I'm in this space where I'm like black. Enough to be fetish is by Whiteman. Instill be acceptable to their family, also black enough to be considered black for black people, but also decides because I'm I'm not dark, dark skin or I have good hair, and so it's like I. Don't know why you're dating, need you? You are dating because you actually like me or because you think I'm some type of trophy. Because of how it looked, so let's talk about that because I I wanna hear about retiring about fantasizing right. So when was the last time you experienced that where you felt like? Someone really felt like you were novel today. My last experience was with a white man, and he would comment on my lips a lunch like. Like? They're so full there so lushest any just got to the point where it's like I can't do this anymore. No more dates dates with you. Okay, so I know like one of the things that came out on our twitter conversation. Is that you mentioned? One of our guests made a point to say like she wanted to experience all sorts of races and really have those experiences in. Yeah, we didn't actually think. Think much of it, but you guys had a very different perception that that was actually I guess I'll let you speak for yourself. What was your perception of that comment so I? Actually I about that. The reason why that was upsetting for me to hear is because as a black woman. People are always willing to go on a date with your experience you, but the willing to lock down and commit. UNPACK youth theory about this, too. Should women and men Oh totally I. feel the same win like men will date Asian women in. It's fun. It's novel, but then when it comes to. And having kids and introducing her to their families, it's a whole different story So-fi I've seen so many stories online or from like our network where it's like a black woman was with a man for like five years wouldn't commit to her breakup six months later. He's married to the next girl Carolyn, notably like smaller lighter skin quiet. All that are like area, typically, wife material that a black woman. Would not be okay. I WANNA. Talk about the stereotypes first of all. Where do wasting these stereotypes came from and session of all. What can we do to to get rid of these stereotypes well? Slavery is the root of everything. All. Right using angry, black woman stereotype came from slavery will go back to the basic tropes of black women is like the Miami and the does. Abell got out with what does that mean so the Miami is? This is the african-american American figure. She's the matriarch of the households. She cooks she cleans. She's a servant. She serves as a servant, and then the judge Bell is a sexually promiscuous woman. You know she's running around in the streets late at night, and that's something that was often put onto black women in so black are they seen a sexual or not a sexual Those are the two main trump's. That came out of you know the ideas around people color when we. Participated, in incredibly racist structure in our society, but what about the anger, the anger? Where does that come from? It's through the media like how? People like women of Color Each group is portrayed specifically by the media in a different way like Latinas sexy and spicy and hot, and then Asians are like docile and like smart and bringing. In black women ended up with the angry. Welfare Queen Baby Daddy drama like when you, when you take a step back and look at those descriptions again like the description for agents in the descriptions from but Tina's are descriptions that are more attractive in dating space. No one's going to be like Ooh I. Want someone who's just mean. We, Kinda just we got shafted. What about the positive? 'cause I think there's also a subculture like one of our best friends is black as well in everyone just assumes she's like fun and very bubbly personality and dances all the time, and like all the stereotypes that are from media that way. How would you respond to that? All black women don't often get to be seen having multiple layers like we don't get to be seen as soft. We don't get to be seen as emotional. We're always portrayed like strong independent powerful angry got up and I think the way that we deconstruct that is by allowing people to be who they are.

00:35:06 - 00:40:02

Instead of placing them in these combined spaces of like this is this is how I see you in. This is the only way to see you and actually understanding people individually so what I find really interesting for media perspective is that the more the stereotypes come out more complaints that come out the more these movies and TV shows are made in response to it, but it kind of backfired so I'll give an example I had this conversation with a few girlfriends and two. Two of them were black and we were talking about that show being Mary Jane, have you I? Don't like that. Show It's a show made by a black women who wind to show about empowering the like black women in the dating world, too, but in the show as as the seasons go on, women get angry and angrier and more independent, and then by the end they're kind of like I. don't even in my life, so my girlfriend's were saying you know. Know Like I love that there is a show created for us, but at the same time it actually feeds into the stereotype will get lie rating like there's no incentive for Hollywood to white way the stereotypes that have been making their money for all these years, but there's one more thing to add to that. which is the fact that if people are upset with the portrayal? It's because there aren't enough if we like if we count all the shows that we have. Have where there's representation. Of course, we're going to feel some type of wave. Mary Jane has all these characters that are being portrayed as angry independent, because we don't have enough character to show all the different sides that black women have, so what about insecure because I feel like? They've been kind of taking this onto like Easter race. Whole thing has been like my portrayed as an educated black woman. What are your thoughts on that show in the message? That's coming there. Is, great, but it's one show. Onto onto what? Yeah, what do you think it's about that show? That's that has had you had this reaction. This is great. We're the one I forget the name the married being married Jay that you ages represented. I hate that show. Insecure is more for the younger millennial Blackhawks chills all the nuance of the of dating while black and figuring out life, which is why so many people are drawn to you get to see the different insights of the character is addressing all these different things like I love Molly's dot like the dialogue around Molly in her expansion. Bro And being really successful black woman who has it altogether, but yet cannot for the life for your your dating situation that resonates with me because that's how a lot of people that's a lot of people aren't like so insecure has really. Done a great job of representing the different places that a lot of young millennials are in life and showing are different sides. Do you think that's the difference than multidimensional? It's not one stereotype or this other being Mary Jane is an angry block female. But I also haven't seen being Mary Jane. So I can't speak on it fully for show like insecure. What I find so intriguing about it is that the characters are so relatable, no matter what gender or what race you are, they just happen to be black right, so it's like these are these are these are normal human beings going through normal human things just happened to. To be of a certain color, but show like being Mary. Jane and I would criticise Tyler Perry in the same round, the the leading factor is there black characters I dunno insecure that it is based around being black like that Mason identity definitely does play a role in insecure, but I will agree with you that like in Tyler Perry productions. We don't talk about Tyler Perry. We. Don't why what what is it about it? What is it? Tyler Perry has a lot of caricatures in his character lineup that are not always helpful end because of the popularity of movies in how ubiquitous it is to see them on your screens, and so it's kind of like he's. It's dangerous, because of just how popular it is, it is what it is so. What you're saying is that there's a very stereotypical character. He portrays always has a dark, skinned black man that does a black woman wrong, and then the light skin savior comes in. This Things got it. So I, think like I think. For this whole conversation is like we just have to stop with these like stereotypes that have persisted in just like let people be people like any other race but I. What I'm also hearing from this is that it comes from within your own community I facing battles in my own community. Asians actually perpetuate these stereotypes ourselves knife I feel like it's the same in the black community the horizontal hostility internalized. Racism happens in a lot of different ethnic groups and. And we do have to address it from within. It's challenging when we don't have the voice or the capacity to do it.

00:40:02 - 00:45:04

We're all trying to fight. We're all trying to fight racism, but then we're trying to fight racism and sexism, and then within our own community, homophobia and Transphobia in There's so many things and it's hard to do them all so then. Ladies Help me out here so I have a lot of men of men, friends male friends. A! Male friends who are very much willing to date. Outside the race, in fact, their dislike I will. I will date anybody awesome, but they are. They feel most insecure win approaching black women especially online they they're like I. Don't WanNa. Stand good. In her. I want to be sensitive and I. Don't Want Your I. Don't WanNa. Come off like this. Some sort of like fetishism yet. My advice is this. If you're a away person and you want to date a black person exactly the way that she would reproach her if she was white, do the same thing. My issues came wine like. I guess like I mean especially because I. do like go out with a lot of white Guy Isn. It's just Kinda like always doing the most every time lake, and and it goes on both sides. Sometimes, it's the most kind of way. Sometimes, it's the most like hey. I'm aware that we are of different skin tones and I'm GONNA. Go Out of my way to make sure that I accommodate. Make this move and easy as offline as you just said a bunch of words. Can you not just be cool? Okay, just be normal, right? Okay, so I'm the guy the from the male perspective. You're saying just treat everybody the same you know, however way way you know. I don't I. Don't agree with that. Okay. I WANNA hear there. I will say you do have to do a level of education like. This person. Do not expect this person to educate you about things and like be mindful like don't over. Think it, but be aware and don't get offended. If you like and don't get offended, they do tell you that you've done something wrong it because it's all about intent like we know that you're not trying to be racist, but let me tell you something. Don't get defensive I've I've address white men when they say like I said. Please don't call me chocolate princes. This is a compliment like no. We're not doing that. The Nats have you got? You got to commit like so we're actually like kind of on the same each year. 'cause what I. What might be normal thing was like to the initial approach. Also you would never say chocolate prints I. Sue white person, so it's Kinda like? I Like I o lightweight chocolate. Like chocolate princess. I always chocolate princess gets me because there are plenty of Southeast Asians and people from India that have the same kind of like maybe more yellow undertones, but like are also Brown and I ask myself as anyone ever review a chocolate business next. We heard from Chris. Who actually reach out to us in response to Yuliya and Safai is episode to share his own story. So this is what he wrote as a black gay man who stated in both the bay area, and the East Coast Philadelphia and Florida mostly I found out my race has. has greatly complicated my romantic life. One of my first tinder matches ever said I'm sorry, but I don't find African Americans attractive when I eventually start using gay hookup apps like grinder I was surprised. How many guys listed no blocks? No films no Asians on their profiles shortly before moving here from Philly, a close friend who has started developing feelings for drunkenly told me that he had a racial totem pole with blacks in the second lowest position, only above Asians the few times I confronted someone about their sexual racism. They would always say some variation. Variation of sorry, it's just a preference. When I moved to the bay area, I started experiencing the opposite problem. People often fetish sizes me for my race. You look like a Greek. God made out of Chocolate Aleph how full your lips are, and show me that BBC big black cock are all openers. I've gotten on dating APPS. I told some guys that I prefer not to be fetish is but most don't understand what the issue is my favorite response. It's not a fetish. I can't even come without a black dude in room so in this. This episode we dove a little deeper into the meaning of sexual racism, which is defined as an individual's sexual preference for a specific races. It's an inclination towards or against potential sexual or romantic partners on the basis of perceived racial identity, so we're going to pick up the conversation right after Kris tells us about his experience, and we open up a discussion about what are some ways we can address the issue at hand so Chris at the time of recording was twenty six years old lived in Berkeley. California grew up in Florida and single and. Going on dates. Let's hear more from Chris. How do we navigate around this? What is something? What have you been thinking about? In terms of how you can improve your dating? 'cause there's nothing we can't change other people's. What is a you can change about how your dating that can make the experience better.

00:45:04 - 00:50:04

Yeah, so I really try to have conversations about race with anyone sort of like dating seriously so especially like when that guy was. Not a fetish like I, actually made a point to say no that like is. This is where I you know. I can't change people. I used to be bitter about all this by like that. That's no point of yeah. Yeah, there's no. Me Just like engaging hundred stations when someone says something that's slightly off not to make deal about it, but just say hey, by the way like that's not that cool. That's a really great way to approach to because I've been in those situations, and it hasn't actually even been like self per. Se was like with another way female, and she was talking needed really off colored comment about lay gay men, and like it was like one of those moments that I was like. I should say something, but I didn't know how far you should step in especially with you know well, but I think that really is the only way to like help educate people. Like A, why would you say that? Hey like actually like those types of comments aren't okay anymore. Yeah, I'm. This isn't the context of another game. That is actually one of my co workers. We were at like a a work retreat in I. Don't remember how the conversation started, but she was describing her ideal man, and one of the characteristics was white I kinda winced a little bit, and she's like what wait what? As well, you know you're kind of meeting in the white supremacy when you save, and she and then we had you know. Not Too long conversation, but like she was very uncomfortable, but I think that's you know. Think about it next time, she. Yes, listing all those characteristics, you might think twice about saying why. It's one of those things that I know. It's like it's been a debate. It's like Oh, like if I say this point of view league number. David got away. Listen because they obviously think about I think this one. The what she said I think that actually probably would stick with like if felt like it was very subconscious. Hearing, but I think the example I gave that girl was blatantly say something offensive. That's what's a conflict to me. I'm like. Is it even worth my time saying ceilings, if kyw change someone's opinion, but I think in retrospect of this was to happen again. I would absolutely say something because it's like that is the only thing you can do I feel like people are confused because there is a. A level of sensitivity that keeps increasing everything we're saying. I mean basically like I feel like I can't say anything anymore without having someone right. Yeah, so there was that big debate back a couple years ago. Where at like restaurants? If they were identifying tables and they will say oh, that's a table with the black people as table. The Asians and this was exposed and awesome. That was an. Right for then at the same time. Isn't it easier to identify your when you're running a business? You need a quick identifier. Isn't it easier just identify people by race when you're expressing preferences? Why is it offensive to say? My preference is a certain race, not only. Are you offending all the people who aren't that race? But you're also spending all the people who are. Because you're putting them all in one category, so it's kind of like that generalization and Stereo typing. That's offensive, so it's like. Where do you draw the line? Right so to you? Chris, where do you draw the line? Where do you say? It's okay that they put that in their profile, or and that's where I draw the line. Yeah, yeah, the line is always feeling is moving sort of every day, but as far as it comes to dating preferences how I approach by profiles and everything now I would love for everyone else to do is talk about personal characteristics that are attached to any sort of groups, so like I like guys who are theoretic funny. That's all great once. He starts saying and white like that. Yeah and I like to sort of differentiate between sort of like personal racism, systemic racism and a lot of people will say offhand comment like that and say like I didn't mean anything by it, but that also feeds into this larger system. That's when I have the issue of Mental I. We all have to change their behavior. One by one smell like our grandkids are going to be listening to this episode light, twenty thirty years, or from now we're going to be like what the heck because i. Next jazz everyone's. You know a little bit Tan around these and nobody's GONNA be raising. Will say as far as we still need to go which we definitely do. If you're getting comments, comments like this like hourly. We're not there yet. I I will say we look at our parents. Generation was like. which worsened, people just weren't even conversing like my parents like I was raised Jewish only with date or socialize or talk to other Jews like it's come a long way like the fact that there is a racial dinning. The fact that we are having open conversations actually is a lot more than where we were true. Yeah, we've made progress. We can still keep making progress in the only way to do that is to call people out.

00:50:04 - 00:55:07

I think the people who are open to change are open to these comments as As well or fee backlashes, feedback were leaving you some feedback also if they don't react if they do fight you or like. They're like no. I am right. That is their opinion but I think what you said like. Hopefully later on as they're talking again or like. They're thinking it over later on the day. It will like remember Haley limitless. Give this some thought, and should this be my thought pattern Absolutely, so, what are you looking for? Chris Ailing for a long term, serious relationship Nagami. That's a good question. Grinder. Sort of you know. Initially I was looking for sort of a long term relationship I was approaching every interaction potential long relationships. That wasn't working out. Yeah I have the opinion now of just like interacting with people in seeing where they're at and what they want, and just being open to a whole range of things as a single person. You know every once in awhile darn grinder for hookup because the. Data. Exactly yeah, and then I'll go on dates with other people that you. Maybe it looks like a more long term thing than they are may not work out. Yes, I'm I'm looking for a range of things depending on where the other person is so you're pretty UPENN to whatever you're looking for a connection of some sort exactly. Yeah, so what are some of the struggles you have now? Where are you finding? Finding people today. Yeah, I'm I'm mostly like again using the apps just because I feel like that's the that's the easiest way to meet. People nowadays is such a unlike a small amount of people that we actually meet in our everyday lives as far as trouble I I. Don't think I get that many matches on dating I. Do Use Stop Than Greiner so like I'm on tinder at Lake you. Things like that for a while? Okay, keep. It was doing all this really cool research with that. Rates of peoples of different races, and of course you know black men got em responses of them than white man, Singh, that's I think like I know we spoke with two black women that are on the show before, and it is a known fact that black women are at the same level of Asian men when it comes to Denia right like what is the response rate, but I at least my perception of black man was not the same. Yes, I think there's something in society that's almost like elevated black men like some of the stereotypes. You were talking about their warlike, the strong like. To, go. Back stereotypes like there's a lot of like like good-looking stereotype. But. It's also a fetish right. But also like I. Don't like I don't ascribe to that. I'm not super aggressive. I'm like I don't have the gym, but just for like looks like. Has Like because the Stereo type, where am I like white people for example, don't have like one stereotype smarter. You're saying basically 'cause you don't fit the stereotype of John Movies. TV shows that you're not seeing like that response. Right? Yeah I have I had a first date. Where the white guy like you know we mash. You talked on tender. We met up, I'm and he's like. Yeah, you're a little more whitewash than I. You know would have thought in. A which I mean, yeah I'm not I'm not. You know fitting those stereotypes and I don't really pretend to but I think. Yeah, Jer like if I have like shirtless. Bicker someday expect. Exactly. Has, white like if you look at celebrities like wait, celebrities of the by Brad Pitt, Matthew mcconaughey. No white guys actually click them either. They're not like. Oh, you didn't fit my leg. Why percents worth but. Why is it different for black men? Because we're still the majority, you're still surrounded by white people all the time, so you know there's various shapes and sizes of white people in the media to portray all those various sizes -solutely are with minority. Is these certain trump's and we? We are getting for the past ally of we're making progress, but I still generally like white people are allowed to have like unique interest in and lights and everything and black people. Aren't you use their color as high as the main characteristics? Like basketball and have John McCain hip hop. Do not like. Your own community like black game started there. Is there any pushback uranium challenges you face as well? That's kind of beyond the whole dating thing. Yeah, yeah, so there's definitely a black game are such a small group that a Lotta those Intergroup dynamics. Just as the factor, but we have to travel pretty far. Find each other. My. Own. As far as like other gay black men, there's a certain school of thought that actually because I'm all these sort of reasons that we should not be dating white men.

00:55:08 - 01:00:01

Same gender loving men is sort of a term. They don't even want to use the game. Because the gay. The were day has gotten to just like associated with a certain white highlanders like like stereotypes yet there are there's a group of people who out on a date with a white guy, and then they like going on dates with white guys. Did. You hate yourself and like so. Yeah, there's there's some of that, and then also there are a lot of of people like me. who were just like? We're rare movies just. By Yeah Yeah but yeah. I definitely do get some pushback. To some of my really good gay friends in New York about about this topic about race, and they said this observation to me. I haven't validated yet, but they said you see less interracial gay couples than you do. Sink are straight couples. There's a lot less intermixing of racing I. Don't have any statistics when I would definitely agree with that, so the characterization even though you said earlier that it's kind of like because you're already like a smaller groom, you're going to like. Expand as many people as you. Explore more. Yeah, yeah, well I guess when you're white. Proud, the most options and that's sort of what you built for like. When people say interracial in the gay community, oftentimes, they're saying white with person I after. The so like you know, a Latino men at a black man like some people were even like that one, even register as interracial relationship. With that's true. If you think about the baseline is white mixing it really. Right yeah, no, but it was an aging black. You think interracial, but I don't know that's the first thing you have. To just be like glazier. Interracial may probably another word for that. Yeah, there is no other word for light mix. WOULD MAKE! PELAGIA, Good. Way During Vigor. Way also. The topic of raises always just so interesting because there's always the external factors all these internal factors like what you struggle wed in terms of identity, preference something that like I can definitely feel as even like the Chinese female community. You have like different groups you have like the girls who only date white guys right, and then you have the group that dates Asia guys, and then you have the group. That's like look down on both groups. Like so much judgment from our own pizzas, while it's weird that a translates into dating so much like dating is about finding love, it should be happy. It should be like positive. Why are we putting so much like discrimination in negatively to at attractions, just one of those? It's a topic that so Harry. Like something that no one ever interrogates I. Don't WanNa Put out the idea that people are intentionally being racist. They're just like not thinking about their sort of natural predilections that have been influenced by the society It's not like it's the same situation, but if like women for example are like I only like six foot tall guy. Five and under that is discriminatory yes. It's just not raised still like unfair because they can't change your race right, but what about also just men who are bisexual say? My preference is men eight, both but my preference is men. Can you really argue that? No, you can't. And that's a lot of people in that actually out of life, all those examples, probably the one the least argue right like you could be like really. Mad About Gender. Yeah I feel like gender has been put into different silo attraction to a certain gender seems more inmate to people's. SORT, of yeah, people joke all the time like gay men are sexists, 'cause they don't like women. Again I guess I can. Hersal I think that's what it is because like. If you type height a characteristic about you, where like I mean guess, gender is too, but it's like so broad that not like earn a sexual preference is really do that's their preference I. Guess You could argue that could be reference with small. Pan Sexual are. Knows the good ones here. Discriminated subway summer. Socially acceptable than others. Isn't that true so let's just be honest. All have these. Nations that are innate in us.

01:00:01 - 01:05:04

Some of US have to unlearn. Learn them or try to figure out a way to get past then yet, but a stems from our childhood is down. The media stems from will. We've been taught I. think some of it to isn't just necessarily what you feel like. I was talking about earlier like our parents. Generation was way workless minded than is like I. think think there's some of that that seeped in. That's like from an early age as he should be with like. This is what a couple looks like like all of that kind of taught to you subconsciously, so it may not be like. Oh actually not attracted to Indian man or Asian man. It just might be like I've brainwashed that like that isn't whoever traffic I'm not saying me personally. Right but then. Again, I was raised in a I'm a first generation American so I was raised a Caribbean immigrant household. Certain religion seven day event. Ism and I was always told. You need to date someone from the Caribbean in that religion because O-, other cultures like who a cultural problems. was never sort of you know malicious thing, but they're like you know you really need to let. Any of their vice obviously. Rebound. Expectation that's why are the next generation actually has a fighting chance. Our generation actually sees why. That was like not okay. Yeah, but that's next. Generation is Fox because the paradox of choice. There's GonNa be attracted to so many different people athletic, no idea what the prince's on. Then women, and whatever yeah whatever? So. Let's on some takeaways. Yeah, on this conversation yet. These conversations I feel like they could go on forever because you're. GonNa talk about. Gender all of this nations. There's so many so many but I. Guess One of my biggest takeaways again is when you think about your own personal preference when it comes to dating, put them into different categories. One is like the superficial characteristics and to the emotional characteristics. How you want someone to make you feel and when you start looking for a partner for your lifetime were even for ten nights. I always say we have tight because we only data certain people. What you know exactly what about the characteristics? You haven't data you like you have no. If you like someone who's like five to right I. Don't know the other day that person I think. My takeaway is like everyone as A human being like anytime. We try to put a blanket over someone like one. It's not socially great things do right, but also it's kind of like almost like you know who this person is before. You actually meet them. That person isn't who this person has visualized from media from whatever stereotype they have. It falls short, even if it's not race, that's like not a really great way to go into dating to have a feeling about someone that really has no basis because you've never met the person exactly. The other half is I. Love hearing stories from other groups that I don't identify with begins now. I'm starting to see that everyone has very similar struggles. Before talking to you I would have thought gay black men had a pretty good. I assume right. That's. Right. There's already this elevated idea of a black man, and then you have. What you I thought you would have it pretty good, and so I'm not saying it's great to hear these struggles. And also it is good because now we can start. It's not so much about like. Oh, I can be in your shoes, but it's about empathizing I can feel empathy for other people's struggles and I think sometimes, too. It's like I think part of it is like there. Is that leg BBC reference right? there. You think like a guy that isn't big. Right would be like outlets. Compliment like why are people upset about that? But then at the end of the day it comes down to anytime. You are called out for a characteristic that again may or may not be true. You based on like a Stereo Type Lake. That doesn't sit well on especially if that's the. The only reason it feels like someone is talking to you. Yeah, if it's not based on your personality or your own unique characteristics is just purely based on your skin color alone. That's just not a good way of complementing someone right. We talked about this other episode to. If someone comes up to you and says what did that guy say, I, can't even? I can't even come without at my guy. The Black Man. The room can have one is. You this is. Like the Greek Goddess Goddess One. It's like a Greek God. act like it should be a couple of because you're like calling out the race.

01:05:04 - 01:10:09

Like just doesn't sit well. I still remember I had one I. Stand with someone in New York in the next day. He texted and said I can't stop thinking about your beautiful Chinese Pussy and like. I. I thought that was like the most romantic thing because say to your day say. Anything! Because, I made it a one. I was never going to see him you. Not, yeah any other thoughts for us Chris any other takeaways. Cigarettes I think you sounded pretty well and I would say both on my end and on other people's end I? Wish as as people dating we just treat each other as individuals and not members of groups. The only way to do that is to continue to have open conversations I, think for years like in our parents generation, and even like as of not that long ago like people just didn't want to state the obvious like they didn't want to bring it up and it's like okay like if there's an elephant in the room. Address, you can't pretend it doesn't exist. That's like worse in a way. If I say something offensive for example, if I say something offensive on this podcast I would love it if someone wrote to me. Is that you a you said this was offensive. Because of yeah, I WANNA. Hear the explanation I'm great with criticism and feedback as long as I know where it comes from, anybody can be ignorant. We just need to know. Know the basis of right, and we know to change our behavior, right? It's only when we call out people for saying something offensive by getting mad at them by calling the names or showing our anger. It doesn't. It's counterproductive right, so we just have to explain why certain things are offense yeah I. Don't remember actually who coined this term, but I actually liked it. Instead of calling people out. You should be calling people in. You should really say that was wrong. And this is why and this is. Not Having as a tack on that other person gets into a discussion with you, so you both can learn an array. You're pulling them into a circle of trust here like I'm GonNa. Give you some knowledge now you're part of the circle. Their noses knowledge again opening the conversation up really the only way. If you just yell at them, then that's. A conversation he doesn't work. Again to Safai Alita and Chris for being so open and willing to share their stories with us to hear their full episodes, you can always go to our show notes. Where will provide some links for Safai Alita season, seven episode, seven, dating a black woman and four Chris, its season, eight episode, thirteen sexual racism, so we leave you with the thought, which is something that Julian I feel really passionate about which has changed will come from building bridges through listening to each other as opposed to just hearing it from the media. We have to continue to be there for our friends of color, hearing the pain and really. Really listening now trying to relate our own situations, but rather taking it all in, so we can understand more and educate ourselves more. It's not enough to just say I'm not racist or worse yet. Be Neutral we need to do is to actively stand up for each other and call out when something wrong, also take a deep look within ourselves and see where those prejudices show up whether it's twenty five percent of the time or point twenty five percent of the time we have to strive to get better every day. Just taking any small stab to learn more educate ourselves more just do better goes a long way. So with that said we dateable started this podcast because we wanted to create an open platform for people to share their stories to be heard, and because of that, we encourage all of you to share your stories, your experiences especially are black listeners. This is our way of learning more about your pain and your struggle, so police amid a story either by going to our website dateable podcast, dot com, or you can email us at hello, at dateable podcasts dot com all right. Let's wrap up this episode. Stay safe. Stay Open minded. Stay empathetic. And stay dateable everyone. The dateable podcast is part of the FROLIC podcast network. Find more podcasts. You'll love at frolic. Dot Media Slash podcast. Want to continue the conversation. I follow us on Instagram. FACEBOOK and twitter with the handle at dateable podcast tag any post with the HASHTAG. Stay dateable, entrust us. We look at all those then head over to our website dateable podcast dot com there you'll find all the episodes. Episodes, as well as articles, videos and our coaching service with vetted industry experts, you can also find our premium y series where we dissect analyze and offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums.

01:10:09 - 01:10:24

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