Season 10 Episode 11: Love is not enough w/ Mark Manson

00:00:00 - 00:05:07

The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world. Hey everyone welcome to another episode of dateable a show all about a modern dating in the time of Corona virus. I HAVE NO IDEA. I guess like our Fifth Week. No I think it's more a I feel like we just hit them on mark while at least in San Francisco. I think we went into lockdown mid March as right around whenever Saint Patrick's Day was. Yeah so it's like yeah. I think we're in our fifth week. Now that's six week and six week. I don't even know how to read a calendar anymore. What are these numbers? Oh Yeah you're right. We are going into our six week. Yeah I don't know I feel like up until now I've been doing okay but we this week. I've been having a really hard time and I think it's just because it feels. I felt like there was a momentary light at the end of the tunnel of not sure. If that's happening anytime soon again I keep going in waves like that. So what what spend bothering you this week just that. I just don't know when this is ever going to end. I think it's like the unknown like I think when it felt like there is a plan starting to come into case but we had like a really badly. Yeah and even if we go back to civilization. We can't go back immediately. I just feel like the longer we can stay in corn teen. The more will get time back later in the year. We're just like trying to buy time. That's how I see this. I feel like this will get extended for another two or three weeks but that also means I think we will have a pretty good summer and then we'll probably have shelter in place again in the fall. Yeah I don't know I feel like every day it's like someone else throwing out a new theory. So yeah it's just I know everyone's krona expert at I know but I think it's all a mindset. It's what you believe to be the solution or the light at the end of the tunnel. I feel like for me. The weather has been getting much warmer lately. Which makes me feel really good. Yeah for shut like once a season start changing. It just feels like life is going on. That makes me happy but I agree. That uncertainty definitely is sitting a little uneasy with everyone. This is the thing with what's happening right now. You're GONNA have ups. And you're going to have down's however you feel today you're not going to feel the same way tomorrow and I think you're feeling that ebb and flow of your normal emotions whoever's feeling like they're in a rough spot right now. You're definitely not alone. I think this is getting harder and harder for me in particular. This whole week has been about loss for me. I lost my GRANDPA on Wednesday. And it's been really tough because you we couldn't say goodbye to him or even just see him because he's in a nursing home in Beijing and my family has not been able to see him since last. Yeah so I think romy at this feeling of loss is really amplified. It's not just loss of life but also lost. I think people are feeling loss of jobs. Law Out time loss of freedom caucus theme is really resonating in. It's also amplified this week. And what can we do during this time to deal with these feelings and to me Julie? Honestly I think instead of suppressing them I need them to to just come out. Yeah I mean I think like first of all. I'm very sorry your grandfather like it's so hard right now I think lake it's me it's on that scale and we also talked to someone. We didn't interview this week about someone that was just dealing with like a break-up during this time right and I both of those right it's again on different scales but it's the reality that life hasn't stopped like your grandfather wasn't affected by Cova nineteen but doesn't make this any harder to like. Get through right now and I think like we're all expected to be like this is the one thing we're focused on. The reality is like we have lives and we have emotions that have nothing to do with cove nineteen so it's like everything kind of suppressed at once. His can be very difficult and just know that. Don't force yourself to try to be positive. I think there's no harm in just feeling your feelings. Let THEM BUBBLE UP. Let them home out. Let them surface. This is the fact is we're going into week six or we think we're going into week six of shelter in place if you're not feeling like you did last week. Then join the club. But we're here to support each other and help each other and really find that our facebook group. Julie has has been a great support system for many for sure and I think like that comes in to this week's episode.

00:05:07 - 00:10:09

We were really excited when Mark Manson. Who's a really popular? You guys probably have heard from the fuck ya or fuck no article. That was kind of like the Bible of dating for so long. I think this whole episode has really been. I mean. It's based off his new audible original calls. Love is not enough and it really makes you look at like romantic partnerships and relationships in your life and sometimes to his point. Love is not enough like there's other things there's other factors and editor for me. I've also just been trying to figure out a relationship in my life and I think this quarantine has been really good to have the self-reflection what is it. You really want. Have Things Changed Enough? Are you the right person for them? And are they the right person for you all of this and I think just like having the self reflection time like I know a lot of people have been just scared that. We're you know the dating time has been lost in I. We talked about this in our past episode the quarantine from Fuck Boys with Shalam Lester that despite its funny name actually at a lot of really good insights and also on today's episode. Is that this time like we can use this for self reflection. We can use this for bettering ourselves so when we go back into the world's we come out as stronger people knowing what we really want. And what's important to us in a partnership and I think for me to like this has given light like remaking finding a partnership a priority for me. I think like the wanted a partnership but I don't think I've made it a priority since my last break up and I think it's really shown me that I do want that partner in my life and I don't WanNa keep going through life necessarily on my own even though I can go through my own. I think it's been cut a self assuring to know that I can take care of myself during this time. But just because you can't doesn't mean that's what you want so it's really. How do I start putting that out into the world in finding that partnership that I really will make me happy? So it's fighting that you've found the clarity that you want someone who's a partner for you in your life. It's almost like you're ready to have to allow the space for someone else in your life in that capacity and not just like a casual person not casual on the sense of like. I think I'm past like a casual sex type of mentality in general but like casual dating. I want someone that's all in at this point and that to me is number one. So that's what you should be putting out in the universe. Julie Su finding a partner finding a partner. Who's all in exactly exactly and I think lake in this time it's like become even more clear. That Lake Life is short. And you know you gotTa make the most of everything like work towards. What's the most important things toward you? Yeah so what do you think is a first step to putting that out in the universe I mean I think it's like just as a full caveat. I'm working through something right now. So it's it's still unclear if this will be something that we pursue but I think it's really getting clarity of like. Are we both really in the place to be all in on this in a foreign not like putting to rest for good in like being free of this to move into something that is that person so? I'm not saying that that's not this person but I need to get that clarity and not let it keep drawing out so I think that's the biggest thing. Well yeah this is the perfect time to work through that. But also not get your feelings muddled because of the lockdown yet and. I think that's something that we've heard from people. The love in the time of Corona Group also is that sometimes. We're hearing that people are coming back into people's lives because of just loneliness and boredom in like we had one person say like women. I went on a couple dates with came back and I don't trust the feelings are genuine. And in that case like you really do need to trust your intuition. I don't think it's all bad if someone comes back into your life right now because I think the time has shedding what I was saying is like a Lotta people refocusing reprioritising relationships so maybe someone did genuinely feel like they made a mistake. But I also think you know when someone's coming back it's just like they have nothing better to be doing and all of that. Yeah and also you WANNA see how they show up if they're coming back in there showing up the exact same way they did last time that you know that this isn't it has nothing to do with you. It's just their needs. But if someone shows up differently than this is a different chapter right and I think the episode that we have coming up for you guys I mean. Honestly this is probably one of my favorite episodes. We've ever done so will keep this intro relatively shore. Because you know let's just get to it but I think mark is just so insightful in terms of relationships and he really doesn't sugarcoat anything and I think there's like so many romantic comedies books and whatever it may be that says like love is all you need.

00:10:09 - 00:15:01

Love is enough and he's basically like nope it is like there's a lot more factors to life and difficult times in your life can really make or break a partner even if they do love you Yeah you need more than just love and he does answer one burning question for me. Which is are we all inherently fucked up. I won't give the answer away so you'll have to listen to the episode but he does answer that question with full confidence. Let's switch to something a little bit lighthearted. I think we could use some of that for now. I I certainly could but I really want to thank our sponsor for this episode as this episode is brought to you by best fiends. Which is one of my favorite games to play right now. In this time of social distancing the game is completely free to download. I am obsessed with it but in on a very healthy scale okay. I'm on level. Leave seventy now so I've gone up twenty levels since the last time we talked about them in the game basically takes you through a series of challenging puzzles. That are fun. Take your mind off a things but also gauge your brain. I like that too casual game so you can play during any amount of downtime that you may have even just waiting on phone with American Airlines trying to change my tickets. You know. So now. I'm on level seventy. I'm trying to get to more and more levels. But every month they update the game. So it's never old engage your rain with fund hustles and collect tons of characters. Trust me with over one hundred million downloads. His five STAR RATED MOBILE PUZZLE. Game is a must play download best fiends free on the Apple. App store or Google play. That's friends without the our best beans. Now let's get to this episode with Mark Nathan. Few years ago there was an article that was so popular. I think we referenced it. On multiple episodes it was called. Fuck yes or no and it was by an author called. Mark Manson and mark and I guess what we have a lot in common. We both started a relationship blog over a decade ago geared towards men and I thought the same thing as you I thought this is just where my male friends who's GonNa read it. Who Cares three platform to just get my thoughts out there and quickly mark saw his blog grow and soon enough strangers reading this blog? Many people were coming to this blog. In fact millions of people were coming to this blog. And that's where he is. Today he is a Self Help Author Blogger and entrepreneur. Obviously we references very popular article. Fuck yes or no which can be found. Among many other articles on his website Mark Manson dot net. He's also the New York Times bestselling author of three books. Everything is blocked a book about hope the subtle art of not giving a fuck a counter intuitive approach to living the good life and models attract women through honesty. What no fucking. That's the best day of spy fire but now he has an audible. Original called. Love is not enough that brings a signature no nonsense wisdom and a lot of fuck words back to the subject. He started his career covering which is about relationships. So He's thirty. Six years old lives in New York City currently lockdown originally from Austin. His married so mark in love is not enough kind of compare the Beatles Song all you need is love and then the nine inch nails song. Love is not enough. Why do you think you know big like rainbows and butterflies of approach to love that? Love Conquers all super flawed. It's flawed in that we tend to assume that does something feels very good. It must be very good in love tricks us a lot and that way like we can fall in love with people who are bad for us. We can fall in love with people who don't treat us well or who are not healthy for us but it's very hard to be aware of that when you're going through the experience of love or when you are falling for somebody and so a lot of what I write about in relation to dating relationship is trying to get people to be a little bit more thoughtful lorrimore self aware of. I guess the broader picture when that is happening and so I kind of use the Beatles and nineish nails reference just because it's the irony with with the Beatles. Is that you know John Lennon Sang. All you need is love. But he eat his wives and abandoned one of his kids and he's just as whole yeah and entrenched resident of this guy. He's like so famous for doing. All this fucked up stuff on stage writes a song called. Love is not enough and if you look at his personal life us like the most functional responsible husband and father in the music industry so I thought it was very cool. Dichotomy why do you think our society as a whole idealize love so much thinks that the solution to all problems I mean I guess a very cynical answer? That question is love sells well.

00:15:02 - 00:20:01

It's easy to sell love We all love to see it. You know we enjoy romantic movies and we enjoy seeing you know the people get together at the end of the movie and all those things and so I think it's proliferated. You know one thing. That's interesting is that this whole idea. That love can solve our relationship problems. It's a pretty recent thing in human history. It's only a couple of hundred years old. Most of human history people were actually very cynical about love. They thought it was as dangerous. If not more dangerous to the relationship that Otherwise mark do you personally believe in La absolutely my take on it is that love is like anything else you can. There are healthy forms of love in their unhealthy forms of love like we do need. Love Right. Linen wasn't wrong about that but we need to be careful. Make sure that the love is serving us in helping us. I also believe love is a choice. It's not that once you fall in love it just all your issues. Go Away the dishes that are on. The scene could just gotten somehow get cleaned sudden. It's that this choice and concentrates every minute every moment and I think sometimes we forget that in relationships. Oh yeah I think especially like if you're single you think that suddenly if you're in a relationship you're going to be happy and it usually doesn't work that way. Yes yeah so in your audible. Original love is not enough. It's so fascinating you follow five real people over the course of six months and they openly let you record all the issues that are bring to you. I think. What's so fascinating? Is You relate. Everybody's problems back to like their history. Their background their their upbringing. Because I think sometimes we forget that. That's what creates who you are today. There's one of my favorite relationship. Books is a book by Harbour Hendrix called getting love. You want. I'm biased. You've seen my book titles but I think it's terrible title is fantastic. But it's he talks about in that book. He talks about how you know our childhood in our upbringing. Our relationship with our parents when we grow up kind of rights. What he calls are emotional. Maps are love maps. And it's basically like how we unconsciously like find love and our lives and so when we keep running into the same dysfunctional relationships over and over again. It's he says it's usually because the the love map that was written in our childhood pointed us to the wrong place And so you have to learn to be right that map and the case with the audible original like it was important to find out these people's history aid to kind of get at what their loved maps were. But also it's like I'm talking to these people for about an hour a month and I'm like going in completely blind so I have no idea who these people are. I don't know what their past relationships were like what their parents were like where they grew up anything so a lot of the early conversations. Were just me trying to drill down as quickly as possible to look for patterns in their relationships in their lives? So do you think goes back to just the way you were raised and just like the mental models you have love or do you think there's is other reasons that we settle for these less than ideal situations you know. I. I don't think upbringing his ever explains everything. A lot of it depends on circumstances. You know there is dating as often compared to a market and there is a little bit of a market functionality to dating. You know so depending on the city or in Your religious beliefs your political beliefs. Your lifestyle Your gender your sexual orientation like all of those things kind of affects where you're GonNa meet people the circumstances in which you're GonNa meet people and so I think there's a real like cut a practical day to day life component that you have to consider as well one of the people on the project was a a woman in her thirties. Actually here in New York who's just like basically been on like a ten year dry spell with like sh- for ten years. She hasn't had a serious relationship and one of my first inclination is like well. Maybe she's just looking in the wrong places and I mean yeah. She was on tender lot tenders pretty the Tories for having a having a low hit rate and that probably was part of it. But at some point you have to realize like okay okay. She's got some sort of pattern here that she's not aware right well. It sounded like for her to. She's definitely standing for way less than she deserved in taking kind of crumbs of relationships and also just waiting for relationships to happen going out and finding the right people. Yeah it was interesting with her. You know without spoiling too much I when I was working with her. I really felt like I was spending most time like encouraging her to be more proactive. And I it's something I generally encourage women to do is be more assertive in like upfront with what they want. Now they feel but then she was just meeting like the shittiest guy. And I'm like well maybe actually. Maybe it's good that you did. Tell him that you wildly after all.

00:20:03 - 00:25:00

Why do you think like she kept meeting? Shitty guys and she wasn't able to be like this is not a healthy situation. This is not good for me like what is it at. Some people cannot recognize. Because I know I've been there before I've definitely been in situations that looking back. I'm like why. Why did I do that to myself? And I'm curious. What your thoughts are. I think a lot of people and I see this in both men and women. I think a lot of people. They develop like some unconscious patterns or unconscious assumptions about like who they candidate and cans who is like an acceptable partner for them. And who's not and I don't even think they realize it but they kind of self select sometimes for certain type of person who's just bad for them and so they feel stock that are like these are the only people I'm meeting but none of them are good for me when it's they don't even realize they're overlooking a bunch of other people very early on in the process without realizing it well. What was interesting about? Her story was her life with a hot mess before she turned her life around as she thought. Now's the time for me to attract that right person. So I think she almost assumed that whoever she attracted her new stage in life would be the right person and then you know just even add another layer of complexity on top of that it actually started infiltrating. She actually started developing like a very negative set of beliefs around men. In general you know she was like oh well when I was a mess. Men loved me. Now that I'm like all put together and I have my life in order and don't want to have anything to do with me. So I guess manner just shit and she. She developed a lot of negative beliefs around men that obviously is also not conducive to To have fun. Because because if you believe that all men are just like don't have your interests at heart. Then you're gonNA kinda unconsciously select the ones who don't because they confirm what you already believe. We talk about that a lot. It's like you're looking for a red car for example at everywhere now you see cars. So it's like kind of spotted that and that's what you're seeking out at that point. Yeah brain is a evidence. Blinder not a truth seeker so your brain is just giving you all the evidence that your narrative is telling you and this is the narrative we hear from a lot of women who've right into our show who say. I've worked so hard to get where I am today. I'm so professionally successful. I have great family and friends. I deserve a good man. Why can't I find a good man? There are no good men out there. That's the narrative they keep telling themselves and they keep looking for the bad guys. Something I say. Sometimes you know it might not be the most politically correct thing. But I think it's true which is as soon as you. I'm sure you guys believe to lake relationship. It's a skillset like you. You you have to learn these things in practices. Things develop these parts yourselves. And I guess traditionally if you look at previous generations men were always kind of stereotyped as being very emotionally clueless You know and it's the classic male gender role was always like okay. Get really good at your career. Make a bunch of money and like all the soft touchy feely stuff. Let women deal with it and with feminism and with all the new gender roles breaking down barriers? And all this stuff I think. Maybe there's a little bit of assumption with a lot of women that it's like okay. Well I work my ass off on my career making all this money. But they don't realize that they never develop those emotional skills so they they're actually in a very similar position that men traditionally were in. Which is they're super successful very proud of themselves high self esteem but they never actually learned how to develop intimacy and be in a relationship a hundred percent so I think what I love about your audible. Original is that you follow people like the woman we were just talking about that kind of stands for less than ideal situation just in terms of men not committing or maybe treating her like a first priority and all that and then you also talk about like more extreme ones like a woman that is still dating a married man in some of the things that you like traditionally think of. How do you kind of identify when there is a bad situation? Ship is what I was. GonNa say but that is making me the right word. I was trying to this situation. Ships just came up by default not to rain on your poetic new word. But what what do you mean by bad situation? I don't know like a healthy relationship right you should like when there's two very committed partnerships treat each other like equals and really are giving to each other and taking as much in an equal fashion. And then there's these situations where one person is clearly not getting their needs met in continuing to go after the relationship despite feeling upset like the whole time and I know like I mean. I've definitely been there. It's like I know logically. This is not a good situation but for whatever reason you keep doing it and I guess like what are some of the ways that you're you can spot when someone is in one of these unhealthy. Hot Yeah Gotcha. The other woman you brought up.

00:25:00 - 00:30:05

She's a perfect example of kind of everything that we're talking about very high powered women extremely successful in her career extremely smart and just stuck in a relationship with the guy who turned out was like borderline emotionally abusive towards her. You know one of the things that I discovered with. Her pretty quickly was that she grew up in such a dysfunctional household like such an abusive childhood that relationship. She was in actually felt loving to her. That actually was the most loving relationship she had ever been in and that was eye-opening both for me and for her to realize that when all you've experienced is dad being drunk in like disappearing for months at a time then sleeping with somebody at work. Who won't leave their wife? Ryu is like Tattoo upgrade all relative. Yeah but it's still not good right still toxic one of the metaphors. They use a lot to kind of help. People determine whether the relationship is healthier unhealthy. Is I think. It comes down to conflict. How well you as a couple of deal with fighting or Disagreements generally what I found is that couples that are very healthy with each other the conflict it kind of has this feeling of pushing a rock like down a hill. It's the more work on it the easier it gets and it actually kind of brings you guys together whereas an unhealthy relationship. It feels like you're constantly pushing this rock up a hill and it's like the more you push the more difficult it gets and then it doesn't matter how far you push it it's just GonNa Roll Back Down Tomorrow Anyway. That's interesting because I feel like there's the situations where you walk on eggshells because you don't WanNa rock the boat. I think that's definitely to what your shame. Hill it actually. Conflicts are never been resolved. I mean that's why you walk on eggshells because it's like if your conflicts actually get resolved and bring you to closer together then you don't mind having a reason to hide things from each other but it's like if the conflict is ripping a scab off and over again then it's like okay. I'm just going to shut up and not say anything. This reminds me of remember. Told you about A friend of mine and she and her husband fought for two years. I got married because they welcomed conflict so they got all the conflicts out of the way and now they don't fight anymore because everything's so he's on the table. Got It out of the way and now with this period of pandemic and lockdowns. I think a lot of couples are going to have to face some of these conflicts head on right now. I think though what mark you were saying earlier about how some of it is a skill you have to learn so I think some of it is obviously the partner with but I think a lot of it is yourself too because I know personal experience like I think when I had these more toxic relationships in my life yes I probably picked the wrong partner but I also was not comfortable with addressing conflict over the years. I've just learned to do that through. Therapy through this podcast. Like all these different things so I think some of it is your own mental state and then also finding someone that's at the same mental state. Totally I mean. This is kind of another litmus test right like in a toxic relationship. People tend to bring the worst out of each other whereas I think in a healthier relationship Your partner kind of makes you better day see your weaknesses and flaws and they know how to adapt to it and vice versa whereas in a toxic relationship it just it makes each of you weaker your story really resonated with me because I have a lot of girlfriends and also guy friends who are high powered who are very successful and for some reason. They define their self-worth by the pedigree of the partners they attract so he also went an Ivy League he says startup founder. And he's yes and that and I feel like he's a good match for me because he's had agreed in that way but they don't take into regard how good these people are and their personalities and even if they get along and even compatible eyesight your audible original to a friend of mine because it reminds me of her so much because for so long she is just so incredibly smart. I think he's let are locked up part of business wise but comes a personal relationships. She only goes for guys who are yes very pedigree but come in out of her life in out and to her. She's created this narrative that that's okay because they're so busy doing their huge accomplishments and the the little time that give her that's love. It's been like this for two years with the same guy so please listen to that so you need to listen to like. I think you're saying earlier. Mark some of it is relative to what love you've seen and what stories you're telling. What do you do when someone like that? We'll use that example but I'm in love with them. What do you say that when you know it's an unhealthy situation but they feel about love? Love is not enough. I know that sounds Kurt. Like really this is kind of been my rallying cry in terms of like all my relationship at rice for years now is that we we have to get over this idea that like.

00:30:05 - 00:35:07

Oh but I love. Oh but I'm so in love with her. It'll be okay you know. And it's like no it's not gonNa to be okay in fact it's probably. GonNa GET WORSE. You know if you're if you don't have respect if you don't have trust if people aren't committed if they aren't like you're saying you're like they're not making that daily choice of like okay. I'm going to sacrifice this to be with this person. It's not going to get better so we have to kind of get over this idea. This romantic idea. Romance is Great. Feels wonderful in. It's important but there are more important things to be optimizing for. I think in our relationship and on the flip side of that is oh but mark. I'm in love. Flipside is relationships are all about compromise. So when do you know you're starting to sacrifice too much to compromise for your partner? That's a good question and a tough question. I mean I think there's a threshold where at some point you know. Everybody ends up having to compromise and relationships but I think there are certain things that are core to your identity and your values that he that have to kind of be Sacred that have to be off-limits it's cheesy Meatloaf Song. I'll do anything for love but I won't do that thing right but you have. We all have to have that. I think what people don't realize that if you're willing to give up everything everything every part of who you are everything you care about everything you value. You are removing the person that your partner fell in love with in the first place you're Kinda just gutting yourself emotionally of all content self-defeating it may be. It's one of those things that will maybe smooth things over short run but it's In the long run it makes things worse mark. I just had a business idea for you. You need to create a playlist that takes people through this journey starts with Johnathon MEATLOAF. And then you you start getting into nine tale. Love is not enough and they get into like some really real songs. Maybe on the rap songs journey I see mini lawsuits in my future. You're like I'm not going to do that. Is this idea playlist talking here for us? So I think what other things that you talk about a lot is boundaries which is very important and I think we hear this over and over again I guess how would you define boundaries. Because I think there's something a little scary about the word boundaries. At least I feel that way sometimes. Yeah I think people kind of recoil the idea of erecting barriers. We like to act to have the idea that you know we can be open about everything and we can love. Everybody in. Life doesn't work that way. There has to be a certain expectations of conduct between two people. And at the core of it I defined boundaries as basically being each person takes responsibility for their own actions in their own emotions and they don't take responsibility for the other person's actions and emotions and so what you see. In a lot of relationship situations is one person is kind of a deadbeat or down on their locker whatever and at a partners like oh well. I'll get him a job and I'll page and I'll make sure eat are going to send them back to school and like just yeah. They started trying to fix the other person while resentment at the same time Foley and and the person being fixtures building resentment because it's like their autonomy is being impeded upon. There are a lot of dynamics that play out one. I call the breaker in the fixture when I called the runner and the chaser. Which sounds like your friend? It's when one person is always pulling from the relationship and the other person is always stepping forward to try to catch them at bring him back. It's a way to kind of experience the feeling of intimacy without actually having to expose yourself and be intimate with somebody and so when we have porous and bad boundaries we start developing these patterns with people. The patterns become very destructive. They create a lot of drama. They create a lot of conflict necessarily and Neither person is really getting their needs met. So what is an example of the breaker and affixed? What's a healthy boundary that you could put in place if you're in that situation so I can call on my own personal history here? You know my first relationship in my life. I was the fixer. And my girlfriend was the breaker and we were young. We were both very like emotionally dysfunctional. Ultimately their strategies feel loved and feel important and feel needed. She found that if she could cause problems I would come and fix them and when I fixed them it made me feel needed and loved and when I fixed them for her she felt loved but the problem is is that as soon as I fix a problem will now.

00:35:07 - 00:40:03

She's gotta find some something else to break because it's like. Oh Shit he's not fixing something. I don't know if I'm loved anymore. He'll let me break this and so it was just Kinda the spiral of trauma over and over and it was just over stupid things and it kept getting worse and worse worse ultimately the only way it stops is one of the two people ops out of the cycle so in the case of a breaker. The breaker would have to say you know what? I don't want you to fix anything for me anymore. You know. I don't want you to get me a job. I don't want you to pay my rent. I don't want you to try to take care of me. I need to do this myself. And in the case of the fixture it's it's saying the flip side of that which is like you know what I'm not helping you anymore. You need to stand up on your own take care yourself. I still love you but you need to be responsible for yourself and generally in very unhealthy relationships like if there's not a whole lot of mutual respect and trust there as soon as one person opts out the relationship breaks and that actually happens with Vanessa. I spend the first couple of conversations with her spoilers but I the first first couple of conversations with her teaching her about boundaries and teaching her how to opt out of these cycles with the married man. It's funny because she originally came to me and she's like I don't know how to break up with him. I don't know how to break up with them. I WANNA get out. I want to get out and it turned out. She didn't even have to do anything at all she had to do was simply. Stop playing the Game Right. And he immediately broke up with her. It's like wow you're done. You know like bats here litmus test earlier like if someone's willing to work with you on conflict or not in a lot of times in these situations like you just said they're not willing to work with you so it just ends. I don't know I mean if there is a situation where someone felt like. They were the fixer. And the breaker but then they had that healthy boundary and at that point the two partners were able to work together. Maybe it would turn more healthy. What do you think yes I mean? So the the alternative outcome is. Let's say the breakers like you know what? I don't want you to fix my problems anymore. I need to do this on my own. And the fixers like. Oh yeah okay. That's fine because what you're doing is you're relieving the fixer of the responsibility of dealing with all these things and so both people can sit with that and not freak out and not lash out at each other than it. Actually that is how you transition into a healthy relationship. Not It's not always doomed. There's a naval around. It can't be fixed. Yeah it can be fixed or I don't like the word fixed like a hen. It can't evolve right and what about with the chaser and the runner. What are some boundaries? They can set. Yeah I'm not gonNa Chase anymore in the simple case of select the woman. We were talking about like she had a guy who's just ghosting her constantly and I'm like well look like be straight up like do you WanNa date me if yes right off. Ghosting me no peace. That's boundary right. It's like when you draw a line in the sand and say I am no longer tolerating this behavior and this is what's going to happen and sure enough. He ghosted her again and in. It's like it fell apart. I think people have trouble with boundaries. Because they're afraid of that outcome like I think there's a lot of feeling like well at least I have someone at least I have something going on not to say that that's healthy but I think that's where the Boundary Chretien gets scary. And also you have to know where your intentions for the boundaries. Come from you can't set these boundaries. Hoping for him to say no I want to be with you and then you're super disappointed when he doesn't do that. You believe in the boundary right. It can't be a game. Yeah Yeah it's anytime you game. I anything in relationships. You're ruining it. It's it's what what you what you just said reminds me of like when I wrote my men's dating book which which is it's called attract women through honesty. I used to get emails when it first came out. I used to get emails from guys and this is back when the whole pickup artist things going on an ice get emails from guys are like like hey mark read. Your book was really cool but You know I tried the whole honesty. Thing didn't work man you're doing. Yeah I think that ties into this whole you brought this up in the audible original of like this holding onto a fantasy and I do think that is part of why people don't want to create the boundary. How do you think like this idea of pretending? Like things are gonNA work out or pretending like things are great or you know can see a future with someone that might be in your life at all. Whatever that fantasy is. How do you think that is destructive to people? A fantasy thing was really interesting so when I went into this project it was pretty obvious that there are going to be a few themes. Just because I've been writing about this stuff for so long so I I knew I knew boundaries. We're GONNA come up. You know I knew vulnerability and honesty was gonNA come up.

00:40:03 - 00:45:14

That always comes up. The fantasy thing was really interesting because that was the one thing that I started connecting the dots on that as the project went on I started to realize so there was one one woman who came in her issue was specifically around fantasy. She actually compulsively fantasized about another woman who was not her partner and it was causing all sorts of stress and problems in her life. And at first I was Kinda like oh she she's a little bit of the oddball here like her like everybody else had like boundary issues and honesty issues and self esteem issues. All the stuff in. Its then you've got this one woman who's just got this fancy thing going on but as the project went on I started realize at all these other people had fantasy issues too. It's just that their fantasies weren't as I guess obvious You know so. There's there's one man in it who is named Jerry and he's twice divorced and both. The horses were catastrophic I mean he's he's got like some. Ptsd type things going on from them and he's in his first new relationship and he's really into his girlfriend and he starts. He's struggling with like every like he's literally afraid to tell her that he thinks it's too cold in the room because talk about walking on eggshells like he's like he's terrified even like tap his toe on eggshell Because he's just like so traumatized from his his his past divorce says even have ads in his room and I started to realize that it's like wait. Jerry's got fantasy going onto which is in his head. The fantasy is is if I asked the turn the AC down my girlfriend's GonNa get angry at me. Like that's completely irrational and unreasonable. It's like just as detach reality as some of these other fantasies and so I started to notice this and other people I was talking to and I'm like And then of course obviously you think about the love and romance thing and you know the Disney fantasy of living happily ever after and everything and and So fantasy ended up becoming one like the central themes of the project. We fantasize a lot about love. And we invent these stories and our heads about our partners about our relationships about people we want to date or people. We think who would be perfect for us and a lot of times. These fantasies are a completely detached from reality and so they ended up hurting us a lot. A lot of times. They're they're kind of a defense mechanism their way to protect ourselves from having to face reality. That's fascinating 'cause I always think of it like the Disney exactly. Yeah because a fantasy by definition is being detached from reality but we kind of think of fantasizing. Something must be must be really positive. You must be really good. Yeah that's fascinating so we've talked about the three characters right calling them characters real people had. Can you give us quick summaries of the other two chur the other two one is a thirty something year old man from Utah named Mike and Mike is? Likes the best and I talk about detached from reality. He's a great guy I mean he's he's one of those guys that you actually start kind of feeling bad for him you know. I think about halfway through because originally he came to me he was like man. I can't get off tinder. I'm addicted tender and I was like okay. You know all right like I think I did a preliminary call within like let's see where this goes and he just ended up being such a character that I was like. Oh my God I have. I have to talk to this guy so yeah I mean he. He's just completely deluded He bought his ex girlfriend a house to try to get her back. I'm sane. Was he the one that would like fly? All over the place for like a first date was that the same guy or he. Why did you talk down from that? You're like no don't fly across the country for off the fantasizing right. You have been. Yeah and it's funny too. Because he's he's a you know on paper you would never assume that like he's he's a button up corporate guy from Utah. Republican like very manly like renovated his own house and like builds his own drywall. And all this crap and like and he's just like the most rampant fantasize earlier and romantic. Maybe in the entire project you know we get people that reach out being like. Is it a good idea that I go to like France and meet up with the sky for a weekend like this if you want to go on a trip go but don't go because like you think that this is going to happen in like they're like yeah but he doesn't? WanNa do long distance but should I still go anyways? We're like yeah.

00:45:14 - 00:50:04

They keep mediate excuses for the other person I always say. Stop being. Someone's publicist. Yeah because that's not your job right need to stop defending them and it's making themselves so good. It's amazing how these are usually. They're smart. People write very competent in other areas of their lives. But it's just amazing. How for a lot of us and I know I was the same way for a long time like my hugest gets cut in half and I'm like yeah. It sounds like a great idea. Let's go do it did snow. It's horrible I mean I think it is the fantasy that all you need is love what we talked about earlier because I mean I've definitely that too is like I thought no matter how much I love someone like all the other problems didn't matter like I could make. I could fix it right. I don't we don't like the word fixed but I actually thought that for a while that usually an example of a time. You did that because I can think of one in particular. This is when I was in New York. Yes and love of the sky and we broke up because I was being crazy on my own and I thought that if I would run into him on his way out of work. Oh Gosh we would have this encounter and we was slow mo run into each other's arms and say that we love each other so I literally would walk past the street every day around six thirty now. He got off work around that time hoping to run into him. No rebel thank God. He would have definitely known as a stalker but in my mind. I kept thinking we just need that one. More chance encounter when we win. The universe brings us together in his eyes. We will fix everything and everything will be perfect. Example is a little different which is actually good because it can show the extreme differences of how this shows up in people's lives but like I was in a relationship for over a year with someone that I really truly loved. He loved me as well but he just had other things going on in his life like in terms of challenges he was facing that was totally external to our relationship that prevented it from getting to that next level of getting married moving in together and all of that and I think for so long I thought I could fix those problems and the problems were things he really had to do on his own and I just clicked like it just wasn't possible so yeah I really can range like what you were just saying. You Ain't having this fantasy of like running in and saving the day versus being in something really thick with someone where two people like. I do strongly believe in my heart that we both really do love each other. It just didn't work because love is not enough right person wrong time my fantasy stories pretty similar years that first girlfriend that toxic relationship so you know like most toxic young especially young toxic relationships we we broke up and got back together like five different types in after one of the I think actually it was the last break up and we were doing long distance because we ended up we went to different universities that lasts break up. I was like you know what I'm not going to stand for this. I'm going to show her that I love her. And that you know I'm committed to this and Blah Blah Blah. And so I. I didn't tell her anything I got on. A bus sat on a bus for eight hours. He started with us. Downhill showed up at her apartment bad unannounced and it didn't go. Well she let me stay for the night but thank goodness. Yeah she's like you got you gotta get Outta here. It wasn't as romantic as you would play back in your okay. What is the line though because this actually made me think of another? I was in like last year. I A relationship ended because my boyfriend lost his visa had moved back to the UK. And I think I am definitely more of an emotional person and he was very logical and I was all for doing long distance and really try to make it work and he was like realistically like how is this going to work like it was very black and white and I think everything he said made sense and I don't fault him but I do also believe if two people are really committed to something in in it they can make something work and maybe that's B- being having the fantasy. I don't know what's the line because it's not necessarily ideal to live our lives with no fantasy. Either sure the fantasies okay as long as it exists within the bounds of trust so for instance like flying to France to meet a guy that you've never met before like you don't know this person they could be an axe murderer like it's that's unreasonable whereas if you've been dating somebody for five years and they moved to France then yeah flying out there totally makes sense you know. Maybe that will ris reignite something maybe that maybe there that will do a conversation that could create something.

00:50:04 - 00:55:04

It's one of those things were the relationship kind of has to earn. Fantasy has earned the right to the fantasy. A fantasy can't save a relationship. It has like magnify. What's already there and there needs to be context. I think like in history. I think like we think the big romantic gesture can save it and then if the movies. Yeah that's where we got an idealistic version right. It's like we think like you said if your story was a movie that you took a bus to see your acts that would not have ended. Probably the way. And that's what gives us this false hope and ideas. We've talked about fucked up relationships. I think now a good time to talk about healthy relationships and some takeaways parting advice. Before we get into that mark. Do you believe everyone's just inherently fucked up. Yes we're all fucked up. There's a I saw an interview of a artists that I'm a fan of once. And he had like the best description of love that I've ever seen. He said true love is when two people with complementing pathologies meat. I Love Alley and well. I guess that's a good question though because we do want to leave this on a positive note. It's like if everyone is fucked up like how. What are some ways that we can start? I mean we talked about boundaries. We talked about being realistic and fantasy. But what are some other ways that you can start taking ownership in having healthy relationships? I strongly believe that the healthiness of your relationships is going to be a reflection of your emotional. Healthiness yourself right so I mean the first thing that anybody can do is just starting right with themselves. Start dealing with their own problems individually. Go to therapy re books meditate. Do whatever you need to do to get to a good spot yourself because this is kind of the problem that you're alluding to earlier if you feel like you need somebody to compensate for how bad you feel yourself. It's never gonNA turn out. Well you need to feel good yourself and then partners simply somebody who adds to that. I think also you talked about in the audible original about just like having the courage to love and I think that actually is really important in something we've talked about another episodes to is. I think a lot of times some of this game playing and some of this like setting up a boundary to see if they're gonNA break it in followthrough. Whatever that may be a lot of that is a distraction of finding love in having large. Like how do people breakthrough in have that? It's hard because it's proportional to a willingness to be hurt. I mean ultimately I think people go through painful breakup and and I get a lot of emails especially from younger people who have just had their first heartbreak and you know we all remember our first heartbreak. We thought the world was GONNA end but it it doesn't and in fact you end up being much better for it and I try to remind people of that that it's actually going through that experience and seeing that the world doesn't end seeing that there are other people out there for you seeing that you can survive on your own that you can be happy on your own. That's what gives you the courage to say you know what I'm GonNa take this leap with this person and see see what happens and I hope it goes well but if it doesn't I'll be fine that allows you to engage the relationship from a place of confidence strength. I always say that love can't be found. It can be felt and I say this a lot because I feel like people saying I'm here to find love. It's like an object that does exist in the road and you just find it and somehow you take it in myself feel love. It's you have to feel it from within and when you feel love you are putting the count ability on yourself to do that and not just trying to find it somewhere so it really goes hand in hand with our conversation where yes love is not enough a love is the beginning of you putting yourself out there to at least open to feeling that once you feel that how do you constantly choose to feel the love and work on your relationship. I love that and that's a great way to kick off takeaways. I think the other big takeaway had from this conversation is also just understanding. Why you're doing certain things like for example if you're living in a fantasy is that because you're just afraid to be in love like are you afraid to bring love into your life like what is the root of where this is coming from and I think the other big takeaway is if you're in an unhealthy situation. It's better to confront that reality and either work your way out of it. I think that was reassuring that it doesn't necessarily be that you're in a toxic relationship needs to be toxic forever but I think having again the courage it all comes back to courage to be able to say okay. Well if I do bring this up I state my needs. I say what I need in a relationship and they're not willing to meet me or have a conversation.

00:55:04 - 01:00:15

I Mckay walking away from this and I think that courage is equally as important as the courage to actually find love absolutely. Yeah that's really fantastic my biggest takeaway from something you said. Mark and it just blew my mind. I wrote it down in big letters fix versus evolve. Yes can we just simmer on that for US? Because we always say all. I have this problem even just like your own personal development problems. I have a problem that I'm always late. I need to fix that problem. Fixing seems so drastic because turning one action in your your fixing yourself and going the flipside going perfect one eighty and it doesn't happen like that but evolve is so different it visually to me seems like you're climbing a different hill and just making those small baby steps so in relationships too. It's not about fixing your problems in your issues is about evolving from them and I think that is the most brilliant way to distinguish how we can evolve as a couple and I also love this idea of identifying the fantasy had whether they're positive or negative in fact maybe all fantasies have a negative impact. Because they're not reality so maybe just even plotting out your love history and seeing what were some of the disconnect. What did you want to happen? Identified that asa fantasy and identify what the reality was and then you are able to to find that Delta. Oh that's where that fantasy came from. Okay that's where my fantasy was and that's where the reality that I would do that today. That's a great action item for people and it's all even even throw in my own takeaway. South one thing that was cool about the fantasy from the project was. I realized that this is something that we all do. And it's. It's something that we will continue to do like I even though like I'm happily married who've been married for years now. I noticed that even within my marriage I create these stories or these fantasies of like what a marriage is supposed to be. What is a husband supposed to? What is a wife supposed to do and over and over again? I realized like what why why. That's not necessarily true. Like why? Why do I think that is true? Why am I assuming that? Why do I think that I need that to be happy And so it's something that it's a lesson that is it's Kinda born out of the dating world but it's it continues to be valuable even committed relationship. Bland we'll Brunei Brown. Does this with her husband too so agree? It doesn't end Dante. Get off but her thing is like when there's something that she's feeling uncomfortable with she'll say the the story in my head is acts in really putting out there that this is how. I'm feeling right this minute that might be completely invalid. But let's just talk about it. Let's have an open communication in see if this is valid or a total fantasy and I think that's like a great way to build a healthy relationship like we talked about earlier. It all comes down to how you navigate conflict so putting that stuff out there and being vulnerable with it is a great way to go from something that might feel more toxic or fantasy land or whatever it is to healthy and this is so much about. What what you've done in love is not enough is hearing these people talk about what they're going through and just hearing them speak feel like started to resolve their own. Yeah shoes because sometimes you just have to put it out there in words or on paper and when you read it or view it from a third party's perspective it becomes so much more clear. I think that goes back to the whole evolution piece to in. We're talking about this Ad. We've all we all shared are own situations to no one is immune to this like everyone has been in less than ideal situations situation ships as we mentioned and I think you Kinda have to go through it it lets you see what you'll never stand for again and I think like until you've had these experiences I think we're becomes toxic. Is he having the same experiences over and over again in not learning from it but also cut yourself some slack? If you have had one of these situations because it's okay. Everyone's been there. You got to have them to learn from them exactly park any parting advice for daters out there who want to be in healthy relationships today well considering ruined. Corentin start fantasizing. I'm thinking about fantasy. The next couple of months and fantasize. I don't know you know it's hard today. I think it's become such a more complex world you know since I started writing dating advice years and years ago but I I think the core principles hold true and I think it's ultimately the biggest challenge today is less of the tactics are the nuts and bolts of dating.

01:00:15 - 01:03:53

I think a lot of the the problem today is simply getting clear on screening for the right person and knowing your values knowing what you want in your life Knowing what you will and won't will not stand for and then use the abundance of connection today to start filtering aggressively to find people who match those things Calls to scream quarantined. You could use this time to self reflect like this is a really good time like to put dating a little on the back burner not to say you can't do the video calls but maybe it's really getting clear with looking at your past list of fantasies. The idea item or even just like what you just said of really print pinpointing what is it the core values that really are essential for you. Yeah that's step number one. Yeah I I've writing a lot about you. Know the last few weeks about how people should use this time to kind of evaluate themselves evaluate their lives. What they want in their lives. What they don't want in their lives and so I think that's a huge first. Step a will if this thing ends up going on for a long time you know obviously people wanna start dating again at some point So it could start to get super interesting but I don't think we're there yet. I think right now I agree. It's focus on yourself first year south go maybe only yourself of your quarantine but so we wrap this up. Can I bring it back to the meatloaf song because I never really about the lyrics because I I would just seeing literally the chorus which is I would do anything for love? But then he says. But I won't do that. What what do you think that refers to 'cause to me? I'm like anal people of the NOPE. I won't do that. I mean every every time I saw my mind has gone the very dark fucked up murder. Maybe all this time he was just helping be vigorous everyone could figure out what their own that is. Wow so D- or it was a in Ohio now. He's like fuckers. I just wanted to talk about anal dating dear. Thank you so much mark for being part of this conversation For anybody who would love to listen to a love is not enough you can download it on audible and you can find out more information at mark. Manson DOT net. So we'll wrap this up. Say Data the PODCAST is part of the FROLIC podcast network. Five more podcasts. You'll love at frolic dot media slash podcasts. Want to continue the conversation. I follow us on Instagram. Facebook and twitter with the handle at dateable. Podcast TAG has an any post with the Hashtag. Stay dateable and trust us. We look at all those pose then head over to our website dateable PODCASTS DOT com there. You'll find all the episodes as well. As articles videos and our coaching service with vetted industry experts you can also find our premium y series where we dissect analyze an offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums. Roseau downloadable for free on spotify apple podcast. Google play overcast stitcher radio and other podcasts. Platforms your feedback is valuable to us. So don't forget to leave us a review and most importantly remember to stay dateable.