BONUS: Redefining how we Date & Communicate w/Kimmy Seltzer from Charisma Quotient

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The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world. Hey everyone welcome to another episode of dateable a show all about modern dating where we dig into why people do the things they do, and why people think the way they do when it comes to dating. Hey, Julie, day, get to see you too. I'm bombed were supposed to see each other tomorrow, but now I'm going down to so cal to see my parents which I'm very excited about, but it kind of ruined our plans to meet up, but that's okay. Right I still get to see you here I'll still be here when you return. If not I'll see you when the interwebs until then. And Julie. This out in the Open Julie tends to cheat on me with our other friend Louise. Hay All three of us were supposed to hang out has sure I add situation triad situation and I was totally cool with it, but now it's going to be like a one on one and I I you know. Sharing his Kerry, I'm all about that, but you know if you. Go for it. You know you have my blessing Julie's Yada. Guess, technically you guys were friends first, but we did beat all beat their friend, but you guys became friends I. Oh, that's true. I didn't even think about that. They're they're. Competition Hey, let's not be monogamous. Let's be open a fluid. superfluid now I did I, did start watching Indian matchmaker oh! Yes, V two! Indian matchmaking Netflix's because people in our facebook group keep talking about it and Aparna. Who is a very controversial character, says something yesterday. That really blew. My mind was such a simple concept. She said we don't choose our siblings. We don't choose our parents. The only family member we get to choose is our spouse, so I'm gonNA. Take my time choosing my spout light like you know that kind of reminds me of like a Spencer in the episode we did meeting your half orange with the book I remember her signaling by new shoes. That's a small decision. The funding your spouse. That's a massive decision and you should not take it Lightly Lightly like it's only you should be picky about you. Don't have to be thinking about like what ice cream you got to be picky about who your spouses right and so for anybody who was feeling frustrated or fatigued. Think of this as such a fun option. You Get to do in your lifetime. Some people didn't have the chance to pick their spouse, but now you do so. This is a I think. This is a very positive way of looking at it so I started a little dating experiment. I shared it with you a little, but I did what it because I know you like to like. Get it all the surprises. I think you'd stemmed from actually last episode that we ran with mingy that we ran last week as a bonus episode where we were talking about how when we started this podcast, it was all about dating in SF. We thought that it was like a unique snowflake of dating here. Then we quickly realized that people everywhere had similar challenges. So because of you know Kobe and all the dating APPs are making it very flexible to change your. I've decided that every week. I'm going to switch up by location. It's what the dating scene is like in different places like. Oh Yeah you can. Loop, do you? Know. So you could just be like in. Bumble Fuck Nebraska and Yup I can write. In Austin Texas right now, Hey! Good, yes, so why not I know I. Think it's like one of those things that I have some hypotheses as a researcher does recognize it like. Will it be the same in different places like I'm curious? will men make be more aggressive in different places? I think that's one of the things that we hear a lot in San Francisco but also across everywhere that just like people aren't initiating condos as much so it's like that I'm curious about like. If the initiation goes up in different places. I'm also curious. Just of the vibe of the type of Man I'm swiping on from context. Heterosexual so I'm swiping on men so again. This is a one person experience. This is not scientific at all, but that's kind of like where the parameters are in also super curious like the batting behavior of the bad behavior happens people just leaking mid convo and the other thing I'm interested in especially during Kovic is the rush to meet up like. Are there some cities where people are more open To To video versus like down to just meet up immediately, or maybe it's case by case, and they're really cannot be any conclusions drawn.

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So that's what I'm curious about, and have you seen anything so I'll give you my very small anecdotes so far only been a couple of places, and I've only been for a couple days. I wanted to get your thoughts to aware also. I should go after Luna. Awake can you across the pond I can go anywhere. I can literally go anywhere so listeners to. If you have a location suggestion that you want me to scope out, let me know so I've been only in two places so far. This is a very do experiment, so I was in la, sideshows Venice Beach, I love and a speech by was to live in l., A. I would live there. I also tried to pick like below -cation that I would be in in than I, did ost in which? Blinking the area I chose, but I did some research like what the hip areas worse, so I chose one of those, but you have to choose specifically an area to. Bring your little location. APPS SO OH! God, for background I've only been doing this on hinge because that's typically the APP. I have the most lock on anyways. Maybe, I'll move to bumble, but I also don't think I'll be able to answer my question about like the initiation rate on dumbbells. That's why was kind of not doing mobile. Yeah, keep it to one APP. Yeah, I think like hinge hinges usually my to so so far what I've noticed. La was interesting. I feel like an SF. Everyone is in the industry like it's like Startup Tech Company La. Everyone was entertainment for everyone. I'm sure it was that some. Like even if they it's like kind of like tech to. It's like you might be in finance, but you're in Fintech like people were like I work at finance at Warner Brothers studio like there is always some tied to a studio which I thought was interesting. I think also. I lay found it very diverse. The people that I was like seeing on the APP and matching with similar SF like a similar racial profiles, very diverse group of people. In terms of people reaching out I had to people that reached out to me I. think also like the matches. It's hard to gauge like the match level because you're new anywhere. It's going to automatically increase it no matter who you are right because you're like fresh blood in whatever area you're not trying to go off that totally, but it's like conversations are starting I would say like the average week. It was about the same conversations at started with SF people. It wasn't Any Any difference one Guy Super Nice intro message replied, asked a question. Totally. What am I a similar behavior? Same One guy was super adamant about meeting up even though I don't live there and now I'm in Austin Texas. He's probably just very confused. But I was like how about a virtual date he was like. How are we just meet up, so he was like especially right now. L. A. Kabad. We're like the height of it right now, but what I won't judge too much. Small observations in la nothing too crazy again. Maybe we'll get your take. Maybe I should extend my stay in a few of these Austin been. Interesting Austin I feel like has been very whites. The people that I've matched with like there's been like some diversity I'm not gonna sit the hundred percent white, but it's noticeable compared to SF in La. So that was one thing I noticed. I noticed a lot more people reaching out to me and Austin but not saying anything just saying like. Hey, that's it. anyways I've only been an Austin for a couple days. Maybe I'll stay. Maybe I'll go. What do you think we're all? Should I go I think you should making list as we speak. I'M GONNA. Live vicariously so Chicago one of those. Heard dating in Chicago is a very mixed bag. It's like a mix of mid the Midwest. Anna Big City in a way and It draws people who come from all walks of life, so you might see more diversity in backgrounds. And that could be very interesting to see Philly I want you to Philly because phillies notorious for having the worst dating scene I've seen it written up multiple articles. I've heard it from friends. I just want you to see of. That is truly the case and if that's the case, why is it OK? Okay I love it. I love it. Boulder you have to try boulder, I really think. Has Some of the hottest men I've ever seen. They're like lumberjacks and just. Cool and they're down to Earth, but they're also very noncommittal, so let's see that's true. I'M GONNA add Denver also to the list because I like men virk stereotype, but then it's also got an ridden up is the worst place to date because man. Just don't put any effort for sure. I'm curious to see if that holds true. Maybe do the Denver Boulder Metro area to area. And then I, think you should go a little bit international here and go to Sicily. In Sicily, because you have a look that Sicilian men love so maybe.

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I. Don't know just to see just to see how they. They're also like known to be more aggressive and you know I. Love Charge more so. I've been I've been told before that I have the look that UK bad like. The sample size is small, but we'll see. Maybe I would fear better across the pond. I mean why not, if you can't physically fly, virtually fly, thanks to hinge so yeah I think that's really interesting I. Want to see if this whole like you. And I talked about this article that came out about how like a lot of married men or men that are in relationships have been using dating APPs during MC. Oran team and I'm curious if that plays out I, haven't seen it much in SF I mean granted I haven't been no. That's a good point. I haven't been super active on the APPS, APPS, either so I don't know if I really would get that gauge, but I think that whole thing is super fascinating, but people. It make sense. There's no bars to troll or anything like that right down. Yeah, so this article for anybody WHO's not familiar. There's been an increase in people in relationships on dating APPs purely for vanity swipes, or maybe they're so sick of their partner quarantine together, but my guess is for a lot of these married men or men in relationships are going to be on bumble because. See the most action. If you're looking for vanity swipes, and only they're going to be on hinge. I feel like hinges a little bit more involved. That's a good point. You make a profile and shed I think like. Tinder tender is definitely probably where they're going the quantity play APPs tinder. Yeah, the tinder first and then maybe like yeah, bumble, because you know, the women have to make the first move so I'm excited to see what comes out of this experiment, but let's say you do meet someone you really click with and. CHICAGO. Yeah, what would you do? Have you thought about? This is a possibility I know well. I think there's a couple things that are going to go on I wonder. Also people's reaction will be like if i. don't live there. I might just say like Hey I'm thinking about moving here Erlich. Scoping out something not like oh I'm doing the state experiment for podcast. And Google your name and they listen to this episode. Bam. But I guess I don't know. It's one of those things that like. It's definitely not ideal to meet someone in a different place like for the long term, if I want to stay on host, but at the same time like what's the harm opening it up and seeing I think it would maybe depend where like I think like. For example or Seattle even or Portland or Denver or even, Austin could be more realistic. Just given their like location to where I know okay, but. I'm. GonNa keep an advice I'm gonNA keep it over. I was I was hoping that I could be like a little like my only downside of not catching the married relationship guys I thought I was going to be like a fuck boy slayer. This whole. You know like we talked about last week. You're going to be the the ghosting version of to catch a predator. I was thinking I could do a buffy. The vampire slayer like reboot of fuck. Boys, slayer you. Do that they don't have to be married anniversary. Fuck boy most of the time they're not in a relationship, and that's why they are a buck boy. That's true I can be a boy slayer across the world. Okay? I see I see in your future. Next time when we go on the news and your name POPs up, say. flair Co host of dateable boys slayer in your. Host obtainable Ed to catch a ghost to catch a ghost, yes. We're GONNA be famous because of these. I love these dating experiments too because. It's a good way to test out some of your hypotheses and sometimes the when people think that their city is the worst or when people think that like the way they look is the reason why they're not getting the matches, so someone in our facebook group. Today posted that she did a experiment where she changed her hair color. From red head to Brunette, and she was getting totally different response, which can totally see I think that is a good experiment. I've thought about like doing experiment on a dating APP where I changed my photo to someone like you're catch a ghost photo, right this gorgeous girl, but I'm like. What am I gonNA. Do with that information. You know like nothing I. Can besides feel badly like there is nothing that's Really Really GonNA come out of that test I get it, but you can also just change, not like your pictures, but change your name like what if you change your name to Anya? Either you will get a totally different response awarded change your occupation. I mean I. Guess It's the same as the location, but at least location I could potentially end up dating this person right like if I change my name to.

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Man I met someone I was in. Do are like way. Why is your name on? Yeah I mean I. Guess I could perfect explanation I'm a famous podcast host and I don't want people googling me so I use an alias. Should be changing my name. Change it every week, changer location and changing variables. It'll be next time, or if one of our brave listeners wants to do this experiment, we can have a couple of people doing experiments. Maybe this is something in our facebook group. We should have a few people do experiments every week reporting back. I feel like a lot of people are doing them already, so reach out to us. And what are the dating experiments you've done? What have you seen? We WanNA learn from you. Can I also revealed this bumble hack that Brian posted and. I love this is insane, so one of her facebook remembers posted that. If you go into, bumble and to get rid of all the filters, and then you go back to your matches, the first several profiles you'll see will be the ones who swiped right on. You I think it's fascinating. One person did call out though like. Aren't these the people that you purposely filtered out person that Posted Posted the hack. His response was well. If I'm getting zero matches, I'd rather get some. Maybe I think it could be a really interesting test to see if the things that you perceived as filters that you wanted to remove actually held true when you saw the people. Yeah, 'cause when he posted that I thought that's the ultimate lesson is when you remove all your filter, then you never Know Know who you're GONNA. Meet, and you can date more openly. I guess. Yeah now. I think it's an interesting one. I'm definitely curious of people do it, and if they see people there that they might have filtered out there, actually excited about yeah, well, let's get to the episode. We're still in the offseason, but that doesn't mean we don't bring you fresh content. This is a bonus episode We We are re airing our interview on Kimmy Seltzer. It's the charisma quotient podcast where we talked about dating trends. Basically, the whole gamut knocked just dating trends, posts and pre Cova, but future dating trends what we see happening roles what we see happening with online dating and she. She has such expertise in image consulting, so she can do these like I. Dunno makeovers and her theory is. What was that helping you from the outside in? Yes, Yup, yet and I thought. At first it sounded like a little superficial when she peel back the layers on it. We're actually going to have a whole episode on our podcast for season eleven with Kimmy just talking about this in much more depth, but I think her point was like there's little hacks you can do that. Make you instantly boost your confidence She's a former Therapists Therapists she's by no means saying like. Don't work on the inside, but sometimes that's tough can take many years to unravel. We're like for example. The shirt I'm wearing right now. People can't see it unless you're on our youtube channel that is new as been putting together a check that out a little plug. If you want to see my shirt color, but. For everyone who can't, it's like a pink color and I personally never thought that much about the shirt I wore at one day as like. We're that when we do the interview on take e D. She's like there's something about that color that brings out like you're GonNa make holiday. Yeah, well. No exact word I use was makes you look fertile. Yes, you did. I did use that word. It works yeah, but now when I wear the shirt I because you gave me that compliment a few Other Other people told me that I looked good in this color. Now I'm like oh I, have this like more confident approach when I'm wearing this shirt so ending in news like those little tweaks and we're actually going to do an image consultancy with Kimmy. So maybe that's actually the perfect before and after profile test. Yeah I mean I think I could do a photo of what I was like before like my current photos, and then how she changes my style, and then that could be really interesting and. It isn't about changing how you look. It's not an overhaul of your looks. It's more about stepping into the image you want to portray versus being in the shadows. And she gave gave us really good example of when she was going through some tough times she would always wear black, and she felt like she was in the shadows and always invisible. Until one day she put on a red dresses. She felt like she. She was wearing a costume, because didn't feel like fully engaged in who she is, and she didn't feel like herself so anyway. Obviously, she's GonNa talk about this on her episode, but it's a really great way to think about how you can marry the external and The The internal of your personal development so before we get to this episode I do want to give a quick shout out to my imaginary friends. A podcast hosted by L. Penelope, which is part of our podcast network called FROLIC. You'll get a behind.

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The scenes look at an author navigating the publisher world as well as thoughts and tips on creativity, inspiration and writing routines and more, if you're an established or aspiring writer or read, our always wanted a peek into an aspiring writers life. This is the podcast for you. Just go to my imaginary friends show dot, com, or wherever you get your podcast. Yeah, definitely checking it out, because I have always dreamed of writing a book so I I think this feels like the perfect podcast tune into and fascinating a writer taking her experience into audio yeah, I love it. I love it. The other shoutout that will do is definitely follow us on Instagram I feel like instagram. We've been doing a lot of fun more interactive polls that we're going to keep doing like we've been doing like the. Would you rather segment and some other things that tend to come in there? I think like this whole concept of what makes you dateable or what is dateable mean to you? We have that as our question on the facebook group, it will start bringing that stopped. Instagram to Instagram is probably like our most engaged channel outside of the FACEBOOK FACEBOOK group so definitely. If you're not falling, US, get follow us there, but a boom. Yes, and then another reminder is to rate us in Apple. PODCAST is five stars great as a review, all of that really helps for us to sustain or PODCAST, and to make sure that we bring you some awesome guests for season eleven, so thank you to all of you who've already written reviews and given us five stars, and we could always use more, and if you do really love us, please tell a friend. This is a gift that you could give to your friend who may be in the trenches of dating right now, or who's just maybe nosy about how people these days yeah. Feel like we have so many of those people like the ones that just WanNa be like live vicariously. Just see what dating culture is all about. That's me living vicariously through Julie dating through Italy. Julie, dating through Italy that would be our next segment I do want to point out though I feel like some of our topics, though really apply to people in long term relationships and marriages, I mean the last season finale was all about marriage so i. think there's something for everyone here, so no matter your relationship status. We welcome you wherever you are whatever you're doing. You're always trying to connect with other human beings, and that's what our focuses is connection and back to Kinney's episode, so we're going to start this episode after her intro where she gets very very excited and curious about diaper fetishes I forget. How even brought this up? We had a whole conversation about diaper fetishes. Because we describe our podcast and she was rewrite this as the Intro, we always talk about like the wide range of topics that we covers, so we talk about sex parties to sex droughts date fails to diaper fetishes and I moves to I. Love So. When she started reading diaper finishes, she was like wait. What am I reading right now? So that's kind of where we went in, but yes, she definitely found the diaper fetish part very interesting, so yeah, well to her reaction there so here is Kimmy Seltzer. Welcome Ladies Hey? Come here. I want to know what a diaper fetishists 'cause related to it. Thank you just like starting there, 'cause I actually was gonna ask later on as we warmed up and I love just Jovan into the diaper, so please what is that? It's pretty much exactly as it sounds, it's well. There's actually a whole range of fetishes. When it comes to diaper fetish, it could be someone who really gets off on seeing their partner in diaper, or they get off on themselves wearing adult diapers, or in the case of the man we interviewed. Just love seeing his fiancee. Walk around the house in diapers like twice a month like not every day. He's very reasonable, but he also thinks is very stress relieving to wear a diaper himself and just change into a diaper after work. You know if the funny part is the key is when you and I got off the phone with him. We were both like you know. If we met that perfect guy in the only problem was that he wanted to us to throw in a diaper here and there. Maybe we'd be down with it. How long. Time I like some of you can't see me right now, but my jaw. Dropping and here I am therapist like you know not too. Many things shocked me and I, actually loved hop on a call with that guy to see what that's all about, but that's super interesting, but have you ever seen that before or heard that before? Just that guy? The funny the interesting part is that the reason why this all started on our podcast as we had a guest who came to us with a story how she was like propositioned for the diaper fetish, so from her perspective in then we actually had this gassed. Reach out because he heard the episode. So I think that's one of the things that we've realized is everything kind of comes full circle, and no one is alone in their situation in.

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My God, he wound years of therapy because he wanted to get to the bottom where this fetish came from, and nobody could figure it out. He didn't. He was not abused as a child. Nothing happened during his childhood. He actually comes from very normal family, so he just he saw a commercial. He remembers the commercial. He was thirteen and he was turned on by seeing an adult in a diaper, and it was sort of like a funny comedic commercial. They're making fun of a situation. He got turned on by and that's very sense from while. On coaching with Kim episode, but that's just a I I know I digress I'm. I want to hear more about these fetishes and trends and all that stuff, but before we get into it. I would love to hear like your ladies back story. How did you even get to where you are right now and doing this? Very, good right here. CAN'T! Light? We're Schleicher done this. We've done the story so many times now. We're like I'll just I'll let you start. Julie but. Basically short of it is Julian I met through mutual friends when I first moved to San Francisco Julie had been in San, Francisco for many many years, and it was my first time ever living in the city, and we started talking about modern dating, not just about San Francisco dating, but I was dating in New York and Beijing in L. A. and comparing the differences, and we both thought Oh my gosh. This would be a fantastic podcast. We have to talk about it. Because so much is happening in modern day so that very same year we said let's just try it. Let's let's put it in audio. Yet and just some more background to is that at the time I had a start up. That was like a human connection platform, because I've been on dating APPS for a long time at that point in I felt like it was law. I felt like just meeting in real life was really hard. The stanage so I created this company that basically matched people with similar interests over Brunch, those away to meet New People in real life in actually started as a dating app idea, but it kind of morphed into something bigger To To bring back the days where you'd organically eat, so I had this interest? Then you a was dating coach in new. York just all over the world and we actually met through the mutual friend at one of my events, so we met there the first time, but then we continue to hang out with mutual friend that it kind of evolved into our own friendship, and you know as to be single ladies. Do we talked about modern dating all the time? What the fuck was up with at least swear on your podcast. We're starting. Right here. I'm Christmas question. Bring that element. I. Is that charismatic or not. Look Like depends who you are. How you use it in all. That bat is your duty. It's funny I. Had Somebody on here who that was her brand? You know that word was in her brand and my producers were like no. We replace that because. Too many times, and it's not charismatic that way, but when you're saying it, you know like in this context fun. The line is once in a while is charismatic. Once every twenty minutes. Anything right anything. In excess can be tumulus right. With what we probably see the dating world. I wondered so like as you. Ladies were getting into almost together, and you were single, and all that have you used like your research and just also your observation of all of this to help you with your own life, Yeah, relationship insurers any US both We date so differently now will we both started the podcast? I feel like Especially for me. I had very strong traditional views about dating and I had rules, and I had all these guidelines for myself, and now ten seasons later. The dateable podcast I feel like anything goes and I'm constantly questioning the rules that I have in my head. And I think for me like I was interesting. Because when we first started. The podcast I was in a relationship, you was single I. Think we've both ebbed and flowed throughout the whole time of being in relationships outta relationships. I mean. We've been doing this for four years so in four years like things are GonNa Happen and I think for me. It was always thought everything was out me like when I. Go on a date And And it would it work out. I would think it's like all about me at all times and I think from doing this podcast at really understand how people think about dating in that. We're all kind of facing the same stuff in people just make crazy interpretations of the time like one of our favorite episodes.

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We do is kind of like this. He said she said perception of date because you never get feedback on a date. And it's always fascinating to hear how two people can have wildly different experiences, expectations perceptions all of that, so it's really helped. Humble myself I think especially as dating again. It's like it's all about me. I love that you know I don't know if you know this. But I used to be a matchmaker as well my repertoire of my own journey and I to that so fascinating 'cause you know, I would hear different perspectives of the story of their day. Abby like re you is on the same day to. Agree where they had totally different views, I always tell people because I think a lot of women, and this is what I see. What some of my clients especially ones who are caretakers? They're much more readily like to blame themselves for something or take something in, versus you know Oh looking at other things than what I tell people is that it's not about blaming you know, and you're only fifty percent of the equation, right and so These These people are gonNA. Do what they're gonNa do, but all you can do is look at what you can do differently to change the result of what you're getting, and that's the empowerment I'd say, and that's why I love what you guys are doing because there's a lot of empowerment knowing that people are really finding things that are challenging all over the world that are similar. You know what else is fascinating. It's not just women I think. We both came in thinking that our listener base with one hundred percent women, and we thought that women and men would have drastically different challenges when it came to dating in our listener base is like sixty forty. It's still a little skewing women, but it's still way more men than we thought in their challenges are almost identical. It gets crazy. Rhododendrons become. Oh, my God I'm so glad, said that, because my man are always surprised to hear that the women get coached and and same vice versa like mannerly, you coach women like where do you ladies have to worry about? SONATE eating I know men to think women don't need any help. And then we're just sitting ducks waiting for all these men to come to us, and like all these matches on dating APPs and we, we spend most of our time trying to figure out who to go on a date with veterans, not the fairy tale they figured as. It's one of those things you always say it's like where is the mismatch? Though we hear all these women wanting serious relationships, all these men wanting serious relationships, but for whatever reason they cannot find each other more. They don't like each other and I think is. It's very fascinating. Won't let's get into that because I am interested in kind of the the stuff that you're finding. That's out there in relation to that. Like what are some of the gender differences that you're seeing in this modern world like are there? Yeah I know there's commonalities. Are there differences? Let's take a Pause Pause here for Demi Moore. Yes, you heard that right? She has a new podcast out called dirty. Diana a new six part sex positive fictional podcast created by Shana Esti. Diana secretly runs an erotic website where women reveal their intimate sexual fantasies as an escape from her carefully curated life and dying marriage, dirty Diana's for all of us who are craving, connection and searching for a new kind of erotica subscribed today wherever you find your favorite shows and checkout q code media for more Info. That's Q. C., O. D. E. MEDIA DOT COM presented by dipsy. Here's a quick preview starshine. You and makes me WANNA. Touch myself. Breezes seemed SPA. Of You. Sing in Sycamore to touch myself. Jima Little J. Most me all right. We're recording. And now back to our show. Are Some of the gender differences that you're seeing in this modern world like are there. Yeah, I know there's commonalities with. Are there differences? I think the one of the biggest differences. Is that they? We always assume the other genders going through something different than what we're going through. We'll be end up doing is we make excuses for the other gender whether it's all I think he is experiencing societal pressure, or she is experiencing professional pressure for some reason we keep making excuses for each other versus actually communicating with each other and saying. How can we come to an agreement about This This and this is the main problem. We see a lot with modern dating. People just don't give each other enough time.

00:35:02 - 00:40:03

'CAUSE WE, they make all these assumptions they make all these excuses upfront. They ignore the red flags, and they think one day. We don't feel the chemistry or I don't feel like we could. We could have a future together. Then audios were done, and that's not how a strong relationship was formed. A relationship was formed over time. Yeah I mean I think a difference to that? It's really fascinating time actually for gender roles that we've gone through. It's like women have been evolving over these years we've been. told to go after things and make the first moves, and there's even studies that like many like the first move. The actually just did a episode of our podcast about woman, proposing and we, the some of the stats at still only league five percent, so it's one of those things that even though inferior. Everyone's saying it and we want it more. Women are doing it. It's still not a total norm, and I think that's been fascinating is that they're still dislike slick straddle between the traditional in the new way of thinking a lot especially for women that are probably like thirty five plus right that we might in like this, both in what we call elder millennial Sigua. Thirties. Straddled is this new way of engaging, but just stuff that's been put in our heads for so long. It's really tough to break out of that some time, so I think women definitely struggle with that a bit more in the man also struggle with it, but in different ways like for example when the check comes like they still know that women kind of expect them to pay, but then also they make potentially less than women nowadays like there's just so much confusion in general, and also men have always been told to be assertive way there's been. Not as much fluidity as women have had, so there's this whole. Making Masculinity, and what does it mean to be a man? Today and I think men are really just going through that now whereas remain. We've started going through that a couple years ago. like I'm really glad we're talking about this because I I would say. This is such a hot topic with all my clients that I work with men women from sixteen all the way up to eighty five. It doesn't matter. There's this you know kind of like you. You said the straddling of of both. Worlds almost because in the modern day world I. think there's different stations also than how it was back in the day before women worked even and so, are there any statistics or just trends that you're seeing in? How. Women and men are navigating that like like the roles like the traditional roles. It's such a seesaw facts because we hear from a lot of women is a chip on their shoulder. I think a lot of women have this narrative in their mind I work this hard to get to this level in my career. I'm super independent I. GO AFTER ANYTHING I want. So why can't I find a man that serves me, but then when it comes to male female gender roles, if a if a man is not manly enough, or is the aggressor or making the first move than the woman's like while you should be, you should Be Be The one. You should be the man in the situation. The man's like I actually. Don't know what message you're trying to give me, are you? Are you saying you're independent? You can go after whatever you want. you can take control of your life yet. You still want me to do certain things for you without you asking so then the the men are Kinda, like okay, do I step back do I do I, you give you give you a little bit here or take back a little bit and then the women I think again. Beyond all of this, the other chip on the shoulder is why have we assume so many frequent roles we've we are the mother. The cared giver. We are the housekeeper. We are everything right now. We are the career woman and we're just frigging exhausted in the words of alley. Want I just WANNA. Lie Down, we. Thought it looking for a partner who can just take over some responsibilities, but for some reason a lot of us just half the tools to communicate those needs. Yeah, I think what else is really interesting to get. It comes back to this like straddling new and old. It's like men still have this like feeling that I want relationship once I. Get my like once on a good path in life like once I I can be a provider once. I have a job. That I'm happy with like pays the bills well and I can support a family like all of this stuff like that old tradition hasn't gone away completely. Even though it it's it's hard i. mean like in our special millennial generation to even younger it's we've been through so many recessions at this point now in another one right in.

00:40:03 - 00:45:13

It's really hard For For people to potentially get to that place where they can be financial, safe in sound, so it's kind of a double edged sword. It's like. Are you going to wait forever for things to be perfect over like just go in dive into a relationship and work together and I think women are much better multitaskers than men like we can get our career in order have a relationship like happens mule tediously where. where. Men are very singular focus, so we've seen a lot of stories had experts on our show to talk about like how the man will meet like Miss Right, but it's. It's still not gonNA work because they're not where they need to be right now. We've seen that as a trend more and more especially with men, but even women. It's like I need to get me in order I in Idea I. I love this conversation because you know I been talking a lot about where I almost feel like we're in a state of recalibration. You know it's like the pendulum effect. You know I think we were once over. You know all the way over here. And then we had a swing all the way to the other side, and that's not good, either so it's almost somewhere in between, and we're all trying to figure out what that looks like, and and really what makes sense in terms of even attraction in the roles that lay out, and really the answer lies within. This is why so? I can't tell you how many flirt workshops. I've been doing more and more lately. Really so much of the answer lies flirtation, and I think just even understanding what flirtation is being in your feminine without losing that that Independence 'cause I think women also think like oh my gosh. If I flirt than Oh, you know I'll be as dom in that. You know I can do it I don't want to get rid of the that I can do it kind of attitude and so i. always say like both genders have responsibility in approachability. And it's what you guys that is so true is that we're each blaming each other, but if we take a look at our responsibility as a woman and as a man, how can we like work in this new world so that we come together, because otherwise no one's meeting, anyone. What's really great right now is that women have femininity that they've always had, but we're also embracing more masculinity. Yes, right like we're going after things we're not sitting passive, and that's all really great qualities, and I think actually with this. V definition of manhood. It's allowing men to also access their feminine side, which is Great, because that's why many builds up so much like injured in just you know just outlets that are productive in this great. That were making this more socially acceptable, even have both, but I think to your point Kimmy. It's like how do we work together to balance, both because if we don't have some of that, there's going to be no attraction like that way. Yeah, like the principles of attraction have gone away completely but. It's a good thing to because we don't want just for example for women. We don't want men that have no emotions like we do want both, but we also want to feel protected traffic were meant to, so it's it's yeah, it's tough to navigate. It's a problem when we're at a stalemate. That's the problem because we feel like when it comes to dating, who can show the least interest wins? I and that's not how. War is one because it's not a war so I kind of equate it to any wedding reception where if it's always like the drunk guy that gets on the dance floor, I and the drunk rights made right, and those are the to start the party because they have no shame. Just like let's just let's get this Dan started, but for everybody else. They're just trying to be the one on the dance floor, because for some reason pride as keeping them from getting there, but to get into a relationship. You have to do the dance I, so we have to think about like. How do we get out of this stalemate? And for both parties to make little moves towards each other? You know I just Reminds Reminds me, 'cause I, literally just got off the Co like a coaching session with the client, and often I'll go into people's like bumble accounts, and I get really mad with them and I'm like I things aren't progressing on Tumblr on my great. Just let's pull up your profile and see what's happening and it's not until I lift the hood. You know so to speak. I started seeing a lot of things that are dysfunctional. And so what was happening as she was not getting asked out at all like this had to do with approachability online, and I think it's really important to talk about because that's where we are right now. Like how do you progress in virtual? Worlds will go to a dance anymore and a bar so This woman all she was doing was she just kept asking questions. And she was like interrogating the Sky Right, and than she wasn't hinting at all that she wanted to like see him being playful or flirtatious, I literally thought I was reading a linked exchange.

00:45:13 - 00:50:05

That's how bad it was. This is? It's hard now to because men are always making that I move anymore. Because of just like everything with Metoo, also a lot of men are just very timid at this point so. I think just like the best way to get things going. And this is something. I did in real life when we meet in real life, but we got this advice from our podcast to. It's like exchange at least three things about someone that resulted backs about them. Because you don't those people just go in hot and are like. Let's meet up or even nowadays. Lets video chat when You You haven't done anything. It's too much, but you also don't want to be in this extensive. I'm GonNa chat with you. Text Black Coal Right Jato. Yes, we think it's good to do this three. It doesn't have to be three verbatim like around three. Though it's like enough that you get feel of this person like you can even ask basic questions of where you from like you know. Very basic stuff to get the ball rolling in then I think what I would do in the past is just say hey like I'd love to continue this conversation like tax just to get it off the APP in then move it forward, or you could even say like hey. I'd love to continue this conversation on facetime or on the video chat, and even a lot of dating apps today are creating video chat right within their. If you're not ready to give your personal number, so there's so many options to move it along. Those are those are great suggestions and I WANNA say to. Is that a lot of women I don't know if you're seeing this to trending that they don't know the difference between being aggressive and assertive versus flirtation writings, and so like the other day there was somebody who wanted to go on a zoom call, or even listen to his voice, because it was a black hole for sure they kept texting over and over again and she wanted to stay. While, let's move this or let. Let's go to zoom day and she was. She was saying it so that it was almost like a business exchange and I said, but what if you said instead you know I. Wonder What Your Voice Sounds. Like, that's different like that's dropping the Hanky and still getting it to the next level out being the aggressive so I think that's also important conversation. Like one of the things, if it was like in real life meeting would I would use to do is like if you're talking like hey like it seems like we're really jiving like I feel like this could be a conversation in person, so we're not like texting with it, so it's moving along, but it's not superseding super eager also right right. There is a fine line I totally agree with you. Around aggression assertiveness and also flirtatiousness. We had a member on our facebook group the other day post this dilemma she had she finally met up with this guy that she'd been chatting with and after a day with each other and a sleepover. She was joking about that. He'd better call her the next day. Just joking and he he was like yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He never called her the next day, so she wanted to get some advice from the men in the group and a lot of men were saying will be joke about it I. Don't know Syria. That's not. That's not a hint to me. That's more. Are you joking because you don't WanNa Talk to me tomorrow? Where are you being demanding? I don't really know so. It's sort of confusing, but it would be nicer like what. What do you think would be a more flirtatious way of getting him to call her the next day? Well, you know. And I say all the time like. Men Really need directives like we women can read subtexts right with each other, because I think we're socialized that way to be honest to almost be indirect versus Iraq. You know what I'm saying, so that's our language, and so we can really like. Get messages underneath it where men do not get that. No, but I think it's also. It's not just what You You say it's how you deliver. It is right, and so it's the tonality. It's the playfulness in your voice. 'cause like to your point like Bat. Delivery of that line could have been effective, had been with a little wink and a smile, and a little patience with it and be like no seriously like I would love to hear your voice in that me. Where do you think about a call? You know like instead of saying well. How about if we move this to a call? I'm available Wednesday at five PM. Like that's like a business transaction Ryan and ending that with Haha ll just. I. Mean I think also one of the things that we've heard from men over and over again that women are still hesitant to do is just like at the end of date, or even at the end of a video data could just be like I.

00:50:05 - 00:55:04

Don't really good I'm like I really enjoyed needing. You are hanging out with you in a lot of women are well. That sounds really over eager in John. If you say you're just giving someone permission to make the next move especially in the world today were men are a little hesitant to make that next move. Yes, yes, and I think both genders struggle with the ending on dates so around this is. That's an this is another opportunity for the flirtation piece, too. Is that you know I always say you don't have to be so literal? Either like you can still be playful in the in the follow up as well so even using the conversation that night, and then taking it to the next place, so remember we were talking about chocolate. You said that you had that place that you wanted to take I'm really curious about that place you know guiding. ooh, see how that feels, but you're right like any. A man needs that assurance that hey, I like you and I wanNA. See You again somehow right so so they're not like a harasser. I think. I say like people are always just playing relationship. Chicken right now no one wants to show that they are more invested than the other person I actually think that is the biggest downfall downfall of modern dating today, because it just leaves both people ambiguous in no one's that excited about it, and when there is a lukewarm feeling, it's almost worse than a terrible day. An Amazing Day right. I mean obviously amazing date is the best situation. Figured tires than the Lukewarm Day. Because you're just like Erica, take it or leave it in the. Wind up leaving because other things come in the way when someone goes that extra mile to tell you, they had a really good time, or whatever that may be and might actually make something that was lukewarm. Bring to the surface in naked something that you pursue in the chemistry grows over time opposed to. Oh, I did feel an immediate spark. It was okay, but I'm not going to pursue it anymore. Yes yes, I love that you just said relationship chicken like that's a really. A jerk. There's some other terms that are kind of like hot right now. That I'd love to go over that because it keeps changing especially right now. We had a new one that popped up. Episode on Dumping Dumping Dumping View. Yes hot one yup. So I. Don't plan on my God I made up a new on the other day because you know like. When you've been. You've been with like you've been out without sacks for a long time. Yes, and you're like in away, unblinking it. By the way, that's another thing that everyone is struggling with like people who are Oh. Yeah, needed right now and not being able to touch. Anybody like that is the big thing we did. It on virtual sex and phone sex, which really need. Play party sex. Parties are taking their events online and they're selling out like crazy. Totally think one thing that's coming back Termi- coined just now Scott instead of slump buster, because that's like been like. If you've been a little in the dry spell, and you finally find someone that you'll have sex which breaks the dry spell. I think one of things that people need to be weary of. Is the quarantine buster because? We've all been in quarantine for three months. And if you're single and haven't had any long term, prospects or anyone, the been West you might I think there is a chance that someone might fall victim. I think that something's going started. Way Or the other person's intentions might just be to like. Get out of that slump, so oh, yeah, good point. That's a really good point. Weight with the okay, so I'm still fixated on the sex party so. Trying to like. Do do what is zoom. Bombers do in a sex party. 'CAUSE I mean you're already having a sex party. Like. What how does that even work is like a group thing? Yeah! It's different variations. A sex center show so there could be a tease -habitating. It could be group. Activities, so everybody strip at the same time or everybody play the exotic. EROTIC EXOTIC ANNUAL? But it you know the rule is everyone has to participate. You can't be that perverted lurker with your video. Often you're on. Everybody has to be an equal participant, and that's what makes these events really successful, but they've. They've been really popular Ya and it can be anything to like. Doing something a little more pg like sharing sexy stories to full out, were Jeez in people like masturbating at home, so it can go really extreme, but then we've also.

00:55:05 - 01:00:03

Had someone on our podcast. That does like art virtual sex in like phone sex workshops, so he disliked teaches people about how to really engage in bone sacks, because it's something that can be a little intimidating. If you've never done in war the way he was describing it, it's just there's so much sensuality with hadn't someone's voice in your air like if you're like away from them right now in your on your bed, laying down, you have Someone's Someone's voice in your ear. There's something really that gives a lot of closeness to that. And he also said it doesn't need to be like full on. Sex immediately can just be I WANNA hold you right now or imagining myself kissing you. It doesn't need to be why go intimacy. You know that's interesting. Because to me, that's almost synonymous of what I'm seeing with emotional connection now in in ways that it's forcing people to to slow down. And also giving people permission to do some stuff like this. Where maybe they always wanted to work on their sex life, and how to give themselves pleasure, or even work on. Just you know feeling better about their body, and because they're not in the physical world getting caught up and all that it gives them the. Permission I don't know how else to put it. It's very interesting. Yeah, that's what he was saying that even once were out of quarantine like I. Mean First of all sex parties probably aren't going to happen for long time, because that's like the epitome of a lot of people touching each other, but these that virtual sex parties in virtual sacks will continue even past the point of that we can beat with people again. Just missing does provide another outlet like you were just saying. Yeah, that lets people engaged with themselves more engaging in like fetishes. That secret. Diaper fetish pregnant. To! Be judged and. Ordering on Amazon right now. Going on your show, and you're going to see like a diaper on my hat. Just like really. I so one last like trends I was interested in. Do you have any statistics or just things that you're noticing about the different generations? statistics wise we I don't have the numbers in front of me, but we don an episode on Jen's ears, and how different they are, so if feels like we're going back towards the traditional, it really feels like genetics and millennials were the ones that went a little crazy and experimented with nontraditional lifestyles, really likes thought outside the box, and Jen's era saw all this happening and thought I really liked the way my Grandparents Grandparents do things. It seems safer as seems simpler I. Think I just WanNa go to simpler times. So the statistics we've been seeing that. They delay relationships because they actually believe in lasting relationships, they? They really believe in dating one person at a time, so they don't really believe in the hookup culture. They're not sleeping around as much. In fact, there's sex drought with Jen's ears and they just really I think they. Value, human, relationships and connections much more so You know the the research we've done. Jen's ears feel like if you meet someone that's not online like you met them in person that's that's like a Unicorn relationship that you hold onto. I think to just all what you just said is going to start to trickle to all generations with Cova right. We are going the hookup culture is going to die because I agree going to be worried about germs now, right, there's like more stuff you're not gonna just hookup with any last person for tender, YOU'RE GONNA. Be On video calls a lot more in vet, a lot more people and probably religious pursue one person at a time again so I think a lot of the Traditional Traditional will come back from covid. Nineteen is because of the scare, and just the way things are netting out, but I also think this time in quarantine has really shown like the value of monogamous relationships like maybe even talk to poly-amorous couples that are now quarantined with one partner who was so anti monogamy that are like actually. This was pretty good like there's value here. Again just for the safety reasons like they might not be pursuing it as much as they once were so I think just regardless of your age. That trend is gonNA. Come back, and we find our listeners like we have a lot of people. We kind of have like a few different groups like the people that are very new relationships. Maybe they're in their early twenties, or they're just like leap lumers in their thirties like very little relationship history, but then we also have is cohort of people that are divorced and they're back out there and this is their.

01:00:03 - 01:04:45

Dating and they've never done online TV. Data gaps for, and honestly the differences between the groups are not all that different, which is fascinating. There's more life experience for the second cohort and released chip experience, but then the benefit of the first cohort is. They're kind of like fresh like they don't have any biases in any way, so it's fascinating. There's definitely similarities and differences but I. Think there's even more similarities between generations you would ever expect. Wow well I guess. The bottom line is like how we started. Were all really not that different? You know men, no men, different ages. You Know I. Think we all want the same thing fundamental. That that were seeking, and it starts with ourselves and I think this is a time that we're able to do that and I think because of that. We're gonNA attract something better, and we'll I think that we're actually going to come out, but even better than we were before I. Really believe that because of a lot of the stuff that you're saying while ladies I could literally talk to you forever. I just. To wait Do you have any last words of wisdom or stories? You WANNA share Please let us know how we can find you. I would just say exactly what you just said. I think silver lining of this time. Situation is putting us in the same boat, and knowing that we're all in this together, and seeing all the similarities versus all the differences, so when we come out of this is no longer me versus you when it comes to modern dating, it's how can we get through this world and create a life together, which is a much better way of building a relationship I I think we need to remember that? We all used to complain about data like that's why we have a podcast. As there's been so many Dana stories in all the stuff and I don't think we should go back to the way it was like. Why is that what we WANNA do when it was something that we were just complaining about I think what's really nice about this situation by no means. I hope in nineteen was a good thing overall. Definitely, wishes didn't happen, but if it's happening, we might as well make the best of the situation and I think we can take. The parts of dating were working, then reinvent the parts that weren't so. Let's make that new normal into something that we actually want because I would think that actually warm men and women to want the same thing and were different. People have different generations. Want the same thing. And then just where you can find us, really on every podcast player like apple podcasts radio overcast pretty much anything in engines, dateable PODCAST DOT COM at eatable podcast on instagram. Awesome I can't think you for coming on. This was so fun and informative and I really I do feel like it gave a sense of normalcy. You know just what we're all going through and having that support, so thank you thank you. This has been the charisma coercion, and I am host. Of course Kimmy be Seltzer remember you can build confidence? Make connections and find love from the outside in and make sure you go to my site Kimmy. Seltzer DOT COM and if you're finding yourself having a hard time navigating this modern dating thing and want to know more, click the link in the show description I'd love to get on a call with you and just see how I can help map out a plan for you. It's not easy especially. If it's all new for you, it starts with a call, so stay tune until next week with more tips and had feel and look fabulous every day. But dateable podcast is part of the FROLIC. PODCAST network five more podcast. You'll love at frolic. Dot Media Slash podcast. Want to continue the conversation. I follow us on Instagram. FACEBOOK and twitter with the handle at dateable podcasts tag as an any post with the Hashtag stay dateable and trust us. We look at all those pose then head over to our website. dateable PODCASTS DOT COM there. You'll find all the Episodes, Episodes, as well as articles videos in our coaching service with vetted industry experts, you can also find our premium y series where we dissect analyze offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums for also downloadable for free on spotify apple podcast Google play overcast stitcher radio and other podcasts platforms. Your feedback is valuable to us, so don't forget to leave us a review and most importantly remember to stay dateable.