BONUS: Julie Interviews Yue

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This episode is made possible by our sponsor happy brain podcast. This won't be news to you, mental health is important. Your mental well-being sets a tone for your love life. And if you're not in a good mental state, dating won't be so enjoyable. However, mental health can seem so healthily sometimes. So this will be news to you. There is a way to improve your mental health and actually have fun doing it. That's where the happy brain podcast can help. In less than 15 minutes, Heather parody explores outside the box ways to not only improve your mental health but have a freaking great time doing it. Some of my favorite episodes talk about hypnosis, why you should create an alter ego, and what the heck a laughter club is. You'll have to listen to find out. I've also found some of the episodes to be great icebreakers on dates. So who says the conversation around mental health has to feel like a massive chore, search for the happy brain podcast with Heather parody today and start making your mental health journey and your brain a little happier.

The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves.  I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world.

Hey Friends, welcome to another episode of the dateable podcast. We are still in the off season, so I know you are all waiting patiently for season 14 to drop. But we are doing something fun for these next two episodes. You're going to hear a lot about us. And today we're flipping the script a little bit. I guess kind of flipping the script where Julie is going to interview me. I don't know about what. She told me she has a thousand questions already. So I'm a little nervous, but it's cool because I had a shot of apple juice. Well, maybe after the center be you'll have a shot at something else. I'm excited. I think this is gonna be fun. I also pulled our audience in our Facebook group on Instagram, so I got some good questions for them also. Yeah, it's a good thing I can see those questions. Yep. So you're prepared for about 1% of the interview. So prepare for 1%. And I'll just black out for the rest of it. I'm a little nervous. I'm not gonna lie. A little nervous. Although Julie and I know each other so well, I think there are still there are things that we've talked about that have been public. So I'm just waiting. I'm just waiting for those nuggets to come out. Well, you know, this is the first time we've actually done this, you know, like the actual. I don't know. Yeah. I will shout out the podcast bad on paper. I listened to it on a flight. That's where I saw them do this idea. I immediately texted you from the air. It didn't go through till the next day. Said we need to do this too. Okay, so shall we just get into it? I feel like, you know, we might as well. I get a lot of I got a lot on my list. Take it away. Okay, so 2021 was a big year for you. Really was. You bought a house, moved to a new city and entered a new chapter with your partner. Three years later, cohabitating between two cities. So if everything that went down in 2021, what do you think was the biggest adjustment you faced? Oh, a bigger adjustment. The biggest adjustment quite honestly, Julie is turning 40. Turning 40. Turning 30 was a big year. I kind of remember that because I felt a lot of mental changes that happened, but I think 40, I felt a lot of the physical changes. And I don't know if this is like placebo effect or you just read about it, magazines, but I felt absolutely like as soon as I hit 40, there were things that I was a little slower at doing slower to recover and things hurt that I never thought even existed. So I think that was the biggest adjustment was just adjusting to my age. My this is my physical age. Yeah. It's so interesting because I can relate to that. I don't feel my age. And sometimes it's interesting that you finally felt it. Like it kind of caught up to you. What do you think was the biggest thing I know you mentioned a few areas that things heard a little more recovered less? Was there one area that you said I could have done this in my 20s a lot better? Oh yeah. Prime example is a day in New York City. When I went back to New York this year, the difference of between my mid 20s to 40 was like night and day. A typical day of UA 25 years old in New York would start at 7 a.m.

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and I'd be back to back to back to back to back all the way till 7 a.m., okay? I would go the entire 7 a.m. to 7 a.m. because I can just stay out and I have so much energy and I'm not tired or hungry or thirsty. This time when I went back, I had to take multiple naps, multiple breaks, and also to say, you a, you're not 25 anymore. It's time to go back to your hotel and just rest before you go on to the next recipe or day. So one of my biggest intentions for 2022 is to slow down and to listen to my body more. I think that's so funny because when I think of someone that has a ton of energy, you are who I think of. I know. Me too, but see Julie, this is kind of what I mean by this transformation and adjusting to it is that you were a certain identity and then at some point you gotta say, okay, I'm not that anymore. Maybe I'm not the hyper energetic person anymore. And I have to be okay with it. I can't live up to that all the time. So let's talk about identity and also 25. When you were single, we got a lot of questions from people. That wanted to know, you know, now that you're in a committed relationship, it's been three years, so all deters, I feel like that's a long, that's a long committed relationship. Like you guys are in it. So is there something that you would say to your 25 year old self that maybe didn't have it figured out back then? Knowing now that you got it. I love that. I love that. I want to tell my 25 year old self that nothing is permanent. At 25, I was with my boyfriend who had been with or I think three years at that point. We were living together. I was thinking that this is going to be a permanent relationship. I had just quit my corporate job and then I was freaking out because I was trying to break into entertainment and didn't know what the future held for me and overall I just had a quarter life crisis at 25, which a lot of us have talked about on this show too, just like what is my life? I need to figure it out all out right now or I am going to be the biggest loser. And I have to say from 25 to 40, my life and my identity, my location, my hair, you know, everything has changed a thousand times. And that is okay because I'm just exploring the different multi dimensions of me. And I will keep doing that till the day I die. So nothing is permanent and know that at 25 whatever you think is your biggest problem, probably will just be chump change by the time you turn 40. One of the things that I find fascinating about you, I will emphasize one of the many. I feel like your past in the fact that you had this very serious living boyfriend that proposed to you, you could have had the traditional lifestyle. By now, you know, you could have been in the burbs with 2.5 kids, a dog, and a white pink effect. From the dog, but if you look at life, you know, I think a lot of people were asking, one of the things they admire about you is that you have taken more of a nontraditional approach. With marriage and cohabited in two different cities. How do you think your mindset has changed around following societal norms of getting married? I think I've talked about this moment before. I went to a wedding in Cabo with an ex-boyfriend of mine, and he's insignificant in this story. It was more this moment during this wedding where this couple who I don't even remember their name by now, their names, but they were saying their vows. And one of them said, what I'm most excited about with you is creating new traditions with you. And they come from a traditional, they both come from a traditional Indian background. And that blew my mind because to me, I thought, my job was to preserve tradition. But they were saying we can create new traditions together as a couple, and then I thought, why can't I do that as a single as an individual? The future is so it's such a beautiful canvas that we can paint whatever we want on. And we only know ourselves the best. So instead of following in an another artist's footsteps, let's just call it that because we're all artists of our own life. I want to paint a different painting for myself. And that made look like nothing before, or that could look like something very traditional. It doesn't matter as long as I am the artist for my painting. I love that. And being single all these years, you've got in a lot of life experiences that are just different than if you were partnered up. Let's go back to cut a single UA. A lot of our listeners were curious about. The worst date you ever had will go there first.

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Oh, the worst date I've ever had. I can't say I can't say I've had a really bad date just because I think Julie you can say the same, like we're just so good at dating. Sometimes, you know, you're just like, 'cause you've done it so many times. You're like, ah, I can have fun with anybody. But I would say the dates that have been least memorable. Let's go there. Because I think that's a bad date when it's a very non memorable date was I squeezed in a date between two other dates. So this was the filling in the sandwich. I'm filling the sandwich date and I don't remember his name. All I was trying to do was fill an hour gap between two other dates and this poor guy had me for an hour where I was like, okay, still anxious, coming coming off the energy of the previous day and the anxious about going into the next one that I was so not present, I felt like he was also like, who are you? I can't wait for this date to end. We didn't even finish our drinks and we left that place. I just smugglers cove. Is that what it's called? The pirate bar in SF is that the weather bar. Yeah. I think there's a smug for SF listeners. We didn't have very good conversation because again, I wasn't very present. I was just a sandwich between two other dates. And I remember we were leaving. He was like, he didn't even say it was nice meeting you. He didn't even say that. You would like trying to be polite. I think we just said, bye. I think that's such a fascinating one that you pulled out, because I feel like usually what people say, the worst state. It's always about the other person. But you actually picked an example was about your how you were showing up. And I mean, I think from doing dateable for 6 years, we've learned that that is so much of it. It's easy to blame the other people, but a lot of it is on yourself. I guess from dating, was there anything you learned about yourself and what you're looking for in a partner, it could have been a great day. It could have been a bad date. What kind of got you to maybe where you are today? You are always the protagonist in your story. You are the protagonist. When you put someone else as the protagonist, you have relinquished that control. So this goes back to what you just said, Julie is interesting. I brought up a story that where I was the one. It was my bad behavior because think about how many times you've been the bad protagonist in someone else's story. Just because you're complaining about dating an external factor. There's someone. There's someone out there complaining about you. You're the story. So if we can stop thinking about or I guess this is more for me, my learning was that if I can stop putting other people as a protagonist, I will take more accountability for my actions and say, you know what, that date didn't go well because I wasn't in the right mental space or I didn't bring the energy that I wanted to. I definitely noticed that shift with you. I remember when we first met you would be by the food waiting for someone that said that there were going to be plans and that'd be really anxious and upset when they weren't following through. And then you had a shift that you're just like fuck it. I'm going to do what I want to do and that's when things really click into place, so I definitely saw that with you for sure. One of the questions we got from a listener Ashley that I think is a really great question is she wanted to know more about dating as an Asian American woman. Can you kind of share any experience? I know it's like a really wide topic and we could probably do a whole podcast, but which we will high level, though, I guess, like, was there any moments that this played into your dating life? I think it also for backstory for people. I feel like you used to date when I first met you a lot more white men and now you're serious relationships were always with Asian men, though, which was always interesting. It's a very, very keen observation. I can't wait to do this episode on dating as an Asian American woman. 'cause we've done it. I don't think we've done it as an Asian American man either. Okay, so we got two episodes coming up. But I think I can only speak to my experience and I can say that I was born in Beijing and I came to the states and the message I was getting was assimilate assimilate. So I wanted to be a cheerleader. I wanted to date the football player because that's how I thought assimilation meant that's what all the American TV shows and movies portrayed. So when I went to college, that was kind of what I thought was cool. The cool thing to do is you assimilate into white American culture. And that's why a predominantly dated white men after college because I thought that was my parents worked so hard to get us to the states, so I should assimilate into white culture. What I kind of cringe on of now looking back, I was reading my journal from New York when I was dating there in my mid 20s. I was proud to be someone's first Asian.

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I was proud. I was like a medal. I was given, you know, if a guy is like you're the first Asian of dated. You're not as Asians I thought. I didn't think Asian women were like you. And it made me so happy to feel like I was special, but I was being fetishized. That's all it was. But to me, it was like, oh, I'm being accepted by this man who never even fathom of dating outside of his own race. You know? But I think we're really flipped the switch. For me, was definitely in recent years. A few boyfriends ago who comes from a very white American family, met my parents, and the words that he came out of his mouth were your parents seem very non intimidating. Not that they seem nice, not that they seem friendly. They're so non intimidating. And I was like, that is how Asians are portrayed all the fucking time. We're just safe. And non intimidating. But nothing exciting, nothing unique, or just non intimidating. You might as well just exist. So because he said that, I was like, dude, I don't want to be with someone who just thinks my people are non intimidating. Right? Right. Is that what you feel about you? Exactly. Right. I think that was his indirect way of saying that. And I didn't want to be with someone like that. So I didn't make a race decision to date Asian men. I just made a decision to date men who saw me as an equal and respected me and my family. And that happened to be with mostly Asian men since then. Very interesting. So I want to go to your current partner because I feel like you have an interesting story that a lot of people might not know that you knew each other for a very long time before you actually got together. And I think this is a prime example of just how your network in person and Friends of Friends can really be a source to meeting people and maybe it doesn't always happen instantly, it could be the long game. If you kind of take us through, when you first met that how things progressed into an actual relationship. What is so beautiful about human nature is that we are different all the time. We are evolving all the time. So when I met my partner, I guess almost ten years ago, he was a totally different person. We met in Shanghai. He was living there. I was visiting a friend. And we had mutual friends and we met at a club, so contextually. That was not a relationship starter for anybody. And I remember just thinking, oh, this is some Playboy. He was some like ABC, which was like American born Chinese, which he really isn't, but it's like a term you use for Asian for Asians who are Americanized. And then they go back to Asia, then they are considered ABC's there. They're not locals. And so those kind of guys get a lot of attention in China in general. They can date locals. They can date ABC women. They can date non Asians. So I already kind of was like, no, this is not going to happen. But we moved to San Francisco around the same time. I think the same year, he was married at that time. And so another check like not available, definitely not even going to consider him. But we ran in the same social circles, so when he was going through his divorce and I was going through a breakup with my last partner, a lot of people were pushing us together, including our Friends, Julie, and I remember you were saying that, and I've heard it from other people. And it was a very memorable evening that one night when you called me and you were like, oh, dev's hot divorce friend is coming. I remember you calling me a say that and I was like, which one? Deb has a hot divorce friend? And I finally piece of two and together. I'm like, oh, that guy. Okay. You know what's hilarious? I didn't even realize I did that because for some reason in my head, I remember calling you and being like, come meet us out. But for whatever reason in my head, I thought you already knew him. I didn't think I was positioning him as a new person, but that's funny that I was. You knew I knew him, but what was funny was I was already in my pajamas. You were trying to use an extra carrot to dangle. In front of me to tap me to come out. Come out. You did. And I had a lovely time so glad I did. But I remember going there and I was like, who is this guy? Oh, and then a piece of two and two together you knew that I already knew him, but we weren't like hanging out one on one. And I remember getting there and then you and our group Friends were saying, you two should date. And I was like, no, he's going through divorce. I think it's just too fresh. And of course, like, a month later we start dating and it just, but that night, I saw him in a different context. And I think you actually, you know what? He owes you.

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He owes you big deal. You know, all the stuff I thought I had that thing to do with it. I'm so glad I did this interview because there's so many of our mutual friends who want to take credit for our relationship. I think it was you, Julie, though. You are the one that set the tone for us because I didn't see him in that context until you place him in that context. And I remember going to the bar and I was like, oh, yeah. I guess I could be into this. You know what it probably was, 'cause I had met him before that night, multiple times. Without you. Oh, threw me. Yeah, while he was married and in other contexts, I remember that SFMOMA party. Yes, yes. And then there is another time that we watch some sports game. I don't remember what. But yeah, there were multiple times, but I think I maybe didn't make the connection that it was the same person. I probably texted you being like this hot divorce guy's cave that I probably showed up and was like, oh wait, she already does that guy. Oh, that would make a lot more sense. 'cause I was like, why is she just calling him by his name? I probably did put to it too together. So yeah, thanks, I guess I did it all clearly. Well, you said the context, context is so fucking important in dating. Yeah. Totally. Well, I remember, this is one time I do remember, is when you guys started to started to hang out again, you invited him to watch the movie Crazy Rich Asians, which I saw with you three out of four times. And I remember you told me he was gonna come also to the screening. And then we ended up at a karaoke place with him in his business partner, Fred. And I remember looking at you and I was like, oh, she likes him. I remember thinking like I haven't seen you. Look this way, especially coming off your past relationships. So maybe you could talk about obviously don't have to go into intense details, but like what is it about kind of like your last relationship that you knew wasn't the right person? And how do you feel today? Something that happened in my last relationship. And I know we talked about this one on our schemas episode, was he and I went to see couples counseling and then we saw a private therapist and the therapist asked the question each to each one of us do you want to get married to each other? And his answer was whatever she wants. And I was like, I don't want to be with someone who just wants what I want. And you knew him, Julie, like, the nicest, most wonderful man, right? And I still think about him because I really admire, I think he's just a kindest person, but he didn't know what he wanted, and he only just wanted what I wanted, which you don't want that you don't want that responsibility for your partner. It should be a partnership. You both want to do this together. So that was a very telling point and I think we broke up like a few days after that conversation because that's when the lightbulb went off in my head. It was like, we don't need therapy. That's not, this is not a joint issue. I think this is an individual issue. But being with my current partner and I think I remember telling you this, Julie even early on, he is so clear on what he wants that he is the first man to have ever asked for change in behavior or to call me out or to push back even. And it's been really refreshing to be with someone who just who is very clear about what they want in a partnership. I think that's such a fascinating statement because we hear all the time of people not wanting to rock the boat or push the boundaries. But you're actually saying that you are way more attracted to someone that did that versus the person that just went along with the flow and almost kind of just became a more version of you. Yes, yes, and you know, I think in the beginning, we're all trying to just play it cool. You don't want to be too difficult and you want to make sure that you're compromising. But you can still do that and still know what you want and be assertive in what you want. I would think everybody who listens to this podcast is over 20 years old. I mean, if you're not, then maybe you don't know what you were so enlightened. You're just enlightened. You're doing like a school paper on us? Cool. I love that. But for anybody who every day we get older is a day, it's an opportunity for us to hone in on what it is that we want. And I really admire someone who can spend their time, figuring out what they want and knowing how to deliver that information. So I do agree like in the beginning of a French friendship beginning of dating in a relationship, we do tend to step back just a little bit more, but there is a way to assert yourself in the way that's very sexy. I think it's very sexy. Absolutely. I mean, I will second that your ex was a super nice guy. I really liked him as a person. I was not surprised when you broke up.

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Would you told me? And I think what it was is that I feel like you weren't the vibrant UA that I knew around him. And I think so much of it. I remember even like Logan Yuri talking about this is like, what side of you does this person point out? And it's something that we don't really think about a lot when we're dating. It's how can I impress them? Or even how do they make me feel, but it's almost a layer deeper of this, am I my best self around this person? Or am I the version of myself that I want to be? My question for you. Well, yeah. Well, hold that thought for a second because I think now memories are coming back. So when we broke up, I didn't tell anybody for like a month or two. I remember. And it was just because I don't know. My friend didn't see him, so it wasn't a big shock that he wasn't coming around. But when I told we were walking and were you and I were walking and you asked something about him and I was like, oh, actually, we broke up. You were even shocked. And that's when I was like, okay, that was just the right decision 'cause you were like, oh, yeah. Oh, are you okay? You said relieved too, which was a huge red flag. Like a red flag. I guess I green flag that it was the right decision, a red flag that it was not the right relationship. Correct. Yep. Okay, before we get to this next question, let's take a quick break for some messages. This episode is made possible by our sponsor better help. In our years of doing this podcast, there has been one major takeaway, and that is therapy is beneficial for pretty much everyone. And we are so happy that better help makes therapy more accessible for all by matching you with your own licensed professional therapist. You can start communicating in under 48 hours by connecting in a safe and private online environment. And you can send a message to your counselor anytime I know I do. And schedule weekly video or phone Sessions. 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Again, that's finding your person dot com slash apps. So I guess with your partner now, three years in, things turned a lot for you both during the pandemic in 2020. At the beginning, it was clearly a good relationship, but it wasn't the level of seriousness that maybe in 2020, it became. I think there is a force living together with the pandemic as many couples at the start of the pandemic faced when we didn't know how long this would be going on for. If we could go between homes, all of this inevitable, so maybe had you move in quicker than maybe you would have if it wasn't the pandemic. Can you kind of walk us through what the pandemic did for your relationship and how it's different now? I think before the pandemic, even though we had a very solid relationship, we were still just dating. Dating meaning we saw each other during our free time. We didn't see each other during life moments. And with the pandemic did was here, push us together was like face life together. And that was kind of a shocker for both of us because before that was just fun and games. We were activity partners companions and now all of a sudden everything shut down and all we have is each other. So we really had to focus on our relationship. And Julie, you know this is pretty rocky in the beginning. We had multiple fights. He asked for space as like fuck you, I'm leaving, you know? Whenever anybody asks for space, I'm like fight or flight, so I move my shit out for a weekend. A whole weekend, and then I came back for that. Very vividly. You're like, we're doing a Zoom call now. You know, that's just my knee jerk reaction, but it was good because it made me step back and think, why do I react this way? Because I am so afraid of facing life with someone that I am retreating so much. So I decided that we weren't going to do that. That's not the person I want to be. And something that's interesting as a couple is during the pandemic, you can almost define your culture together. You know, companies define their culture ethnicity can have a culture. A couple can have their culture, too. And we define our culture as adventurous, not scared of adversity and conflict. And constant growth. That's kind of like our culture. Love that. And I think that's what's helped us get through the pandemic just the two of us, if we can just keep in mind, hey, are we on our culture here? Are we on brand or are we reverting back to our old selves? I love that. I think you brought up so many interesting points. I think a lot of couples, even if they've been dating a year plus, you're kind of living separate lives, but doing stuff together versus partners who are doing life together. And it is a difference. And you don't need to necessarily live together and some people go faster than others. It's all across the spectrum, but I do think there is a distinction and it's not always measured in amount of time you've been with someone. So true. I mean, there's a huge difference between come over to my apartment and I'll cook dinner for you versus another work day. All right, both of us are busy. Who's doing lunch? Lunch together. That's a different conversation, but they're both around a meal. The premise of it is just very different. Yeah, so what do you think this came from one of our listeners? What do you think is the most surprising thing about living together that you've encountered? For me personally, I think the most surprising thing is, I might my only child tendencies have come out more than I thought. I thought I had suppressed them for 40 years. And here she is. Hey, she's back. And part of the only child tendencies is I don't like to share things space people air like you know I just like my own everything and I also just go through the day without a routine. I eat whenever I want. I do things whenever I want. So that drove my partner insane because he's very much about like, okay, are we eating lunch at 12? What's going on? I need to know the rundown of the day. So I think the only child tendencies have shown a different side of me that I thought had been dead for a while, but that's good though, because it means that this partner is invigorating me and inspiring these different parts to come out and just be like, hey, what's up? This girl's out now. What do you want to say to her, you know? I love that, that we have an episode coming up with season four tea that kind of goes into different parts of us that's so fascinating. We got a really funny question of it. Oh boy. I wasn't sure if it was who it was directed to fully, but it was what are your pet peeves about each other and by clarifying question was about you and I are about you and her partner.

00:35:02 - 00:40:00

So you can take this question however you want to go. Oh. Boy. That's all. I don't know. I don't know. Do we answer that about each other? Yes. That is really funny. Well, Julie's my longest relationship ever. You're by two. So I guess I should answer it about her. It's not really pet peeve. It's more like a Julie and I just work on different wavelengths, so Julie's like go, go, go, and she has she can juggle a thousand things. People always say you can't multitask. I think Julie is the queen of multitasking. She is the person to prove that multitasking can exist. And I am the person who thinks she can multitask when I'm just I'm such an aquarian in that way where my mind just goes wherever it wants to go. So I think we're just on different wavelengths and you can see it by our text messages. I do. 'cause Julie is very train of thought. She's also texting from her computer. So you can type a little freely on there, right? I'm not actually texting for my people. My God, how do you fucking do it? Aren't your thumbs tired? My partner also agrees with the sentiment and my coworkers have also agreed with the sentiment that I sent a lot of trade of thoughts. I knew you were gonna say that. And the best part of Julie's trade of thought tags is that sometimes she answers her own questions. So sometimes I just let her be. She'll just keep texting and at the end, she'll be like, never mind. I got it. You're like, I'm glad I could help out. Yeah. It's like a self cleaning oven. She just cleans up her old mess. I got it. Great. Oven. If I had, if I had a dating profile, that's what I'd put on there. But so here's the, I guess a pet peeve part is that sometimes I feel the pressure to do to do and work faster. When you're with someone who can work on such a multi multi stream fast paced wavelength and your just going down the stream you're trying you're trying your hardest to find your way to fly yourself up there. So it does bring that pressure that then I have to separate the two. Is the pressure worth my time to think about or should I just think about the things I actually need to do? I definitely don't want to make you feel that way. I know it can I know that I think also I need to lure to that just 'cause I operate that way. That doesn't mean that that's how many people operate. So I knew that was what you were gonna say, but I thought that question was just really funny because I didn't really know who it was directed to and then when I did clarify with the person that submitted it, he's like, it could go either way. Like you guys. Well, perfect. Interesting better. But going back to you and your partner because it's more interesting. Oh no, no, our relationship is a lot more interesting. Well, it's debatable. Debatable. Right. Yes. But speaking of bite, well, we'll do buy city relationships as we're going anyway. So I guess that applies to both of us. So you and your partner could have had a little bit of a change this year that you moved to LA and bought a place and he still had a residence in SF. Obviously was living with you in LA too. So it wasn't completely by city, but it was kind of juggling two cities. How did that, you know, how was that, I guess, maybe just high level? How did that go? And what was challenging and what worked really great about it. This was one of the most transformational choices that we've had to make as a couple that have changed how we view our relationship moving forward. And I'll explain this by saying that, for a long time, I thought, in a partnership, you have to make very definitive decisions together. It's either or. So when I was thinking about moving to LA, I was afraid that the conversation would be either moved to LA or this relationship is over. But it's a yes and decision. So we were thinking, how can we be creative about this? Yes, I want to move to LA. I am moving to LA. I had already made up my mind. And how do we make it work? I love that. That set the tone for all of our decision making is like, doesn't have to be so black and white. You can think more creatively. So the way we've set it up is he can work remotely most of the month. So he'll be in LA with me most of the month. He flies back to San Francisco for like one week a month. So it's almost like a business trip. And I can pretty much be remote too. So I try to go with him whenever he goes back to San Francisco and I get to see Julie whenever the chance presents itself and when COVID is not rampant, but it does give me an opportunity to reconnect with my San Francisco Friends, and be in two cities which are two wonderful city.

00:40:00 - 00:45:01

So I feel very privileged that way. Is it going to be sustainable and stayed this way forever? Probably not. But at least for right now, it works pretty damn well. Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things I've admired about you and your partner is that you do create your own rules. And I love that that it doesn't have to be this either or all the time. You've mentioned this on the podcast and some people commented this as a question too, some of our listeners is that you felt the pressure sometimes by your parents and you know other friends to why aren't you married? Why don't you have kids yet? You know, especially when you hit that three year Mark, I think whether it's justified or not, people feel like you should be at a certain place. And that's society that's dictated that not what actually matters. How have you learned to one fight back on that? And then also internally be comfortable where you are. One hack that I can give everyone that has worked for me is remove the word should from your vocabulary. And if someone says something to you, like your parents or your friends or whatever who say, you should be married now you should have kids by now. You can ask them, how would you ask that question if you remove the word should? So then it forces them to say, okay, by now, would you want kids? By now, would you want to be in a marriage? So then it becomes more collaborative versus, I know, I know everything you should be doing this. So we're moving should is number one. Number two is, again, nothing is permanent. And just know the decisions you make today may not be the decisions you make tomorrow, but it's okay to flip flop. I still flip flop between the two, almost every day, like some days I really want it, some days I don't, but I'm not so much suppressing it or depriving myself of it. I just let myself feel it and know that nothing is permanent and I can become a little bit of both, like wanting it and not wanting it at the same time. Yeah, I think something interesting you set on a past episode is that your parents have been living with you for a little bit and they've now seen you as a unit and the best way to kind of overcome some of this is just to see the commitment levels because some of it was maybe coming from a place of like, is this person committed to you? And you know our parents generation, marriage was commitment, and that doesn't mean that is the way it is anymore. I guess how have your views of commitment changed is my first part of the question. The second part is how have you and your partner become more committed over the last year? The action is proof is in the pudding and action speaks louder than words. So what my parents saw was when I was away from LA for a business trip or whatever, my partner would stay in LA with them and spend time with them. He has his place in San Francisco. He could easily just go back to San Francisco, but he wanted to spend that time with him because he does feel invested in our lives. And so I feel like that they feel a lot better about that. And I also think commitment, commitment is how do you want to visualize this? I think with marriage the way I see I visualize commitment with marriage is that it's a box and then you put the two people in the box and make sure they don't escape outside the box. But I feel like better commitment is when both people are drawing the boundaries. That could be a box that could be a circle. It could be any fucking shape you want. But what if two people are just constantly drawing the boundaries and you can push the boundaries you can expand the boundaries you can tighten the boundaries, but it doesn't make you feel so trapped in a box. And I hate that. You know, the other thing you and I have talked about this Julie is that for some reason society loves to demonize marriage. So then it almost makes it not cool to be married anymore. It's like not cool to be straight or married, right? It's like, oh, the tables are turning. They're like so not woke because it's like, you know, people think of it as like a trap, there's Chinese say, my mom was telling me is marriage is like the water under a bridge. People who are in the water want to get out and who are people who are above the water are trying their hardest to get in. And I'm like, that's just terrible. That's just sad, actually. It's like no one's happy. You might be. Yeah, but who's on the bridge then? Let them be on the bridge. Nobody go in the water. So in my mind, at least, you know, that's a great thing about 40, so you fuck it. Who cares about the commitment, the marriage and the vows? I've gone to so many weddings. I have question if any of them are real. And some of them are in some of them aren't. But if the two of you can keep drawing your boxes and your boundaries, that's commitment right there, because commitment is between two people who are committed to making it work. I love that. And I think you've said this to me too. It's like sometimes we're always so focused on what's the future going to hold. Are we going to get married? Are we going to get divorced? What if they leave me? And it's like the reality is you just don't know.

00:45:02 - 00:50:03

Obviously, to take. You can set yourself up for success, like clearly don't be in bad situations, but life happens and you know people do change. And hopefully you grow with your partner, but just because you don't for some reason, it doesn't mean that it was a failure either, and you were any less committed. Exactly. We can't. We can't hinder our present time due to our anxiety about the future. The future has not happened yet. So why let that hinder our happiness now? So I want to switch gears a bit and also for most people probably though this, but outside of dateable, you also work in the fitness industry. So you have taught dance classes before you are producer a tonal, which is a fitness company, so you're pretty ingrained in the fitness community and you're also a fitness enthusiast. And I think of you, I think of someone that's always trying some new fitness routine or dancing. In fact, do you think there's any parallels between the fitness industry and the dating industry? So many. I'm so glad you asked this question because I think about it all the time and my coworkers think I'm crazy. But that's true. So I'll give you this very, very interesting example. I do casting for tonal now. So we're always looking at new coaches. Instead of getting kind of like echo chamber opinions about the people we're seeing, I wanted to go out to a focus group that could get a good sample across the nation of people from all walks of life, color, gender, sex, age, et cetera. And I presented this group with a very diverse lineup of coaches who we have black coaches. We have body positive female coaches. We have an Asian male coach. Just quite the diverse range. And I wanted to see how they would react. And I don't know if you can kind of guess what the results were. Okay, I'm assuming it was similar to what people see on data apps. Yeah, so what is so fascinating? My point in doing this focus group was trying to get more people to say, that person resonates with me because they look like me. Everybody gravitated towards the white man. Everybody ranked him the highest. Interesting. Everybody said I would only want to work out with them. And the women fell at the bottom and the ethnic men, the minority men were in the middle, with some it was kind of polarizing. Some people either said, I can see it, or I don't see myself working with them. But everybody put the white male at the top, and when you go a little bit more one layer deeper of asking them why, they all said, because he looks like every other fitness person I've seen on DVDs and on TV. And this is the problem with dating apps to a work just dating in general. And media is the attractive people who we find attractive are because who the media has portrayed as attractive. It doesn't mean that attraction and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It's so true. It's not like this one look, but Hollywood seems to think it's one look. And that's why for so many years I dated this one specific type of man because I thought that was what was attractive. It didn't mean that I found that type to be the most attractive, right? But this was mind-blowing for me in the fitness industry because I was like, we gotta change this. This is why we need representation, but this is also why we need representation in dating too. This is why you need to open up your filters and be more open to dating outside of your normal type because you don't know what you don't know. Yeah. That is a very interesting parallel. I never thought about that, but I can as soon as you started say it, I'm like, I know where this conversation is going. It's like the data that okay, Cupid presented of who's at the top and bottom of dating pool, right? Getting the amount of swipes. So you also used to work as a dating coach and I know that you have a lot of opinions on the industry. For better or for worse, too much. Can you share kind of, let's start with the positive, maybe what's good about the industry and dating coaching and then also what can be more toxic and problematic. Okay, I like that you want to start with the positive. Because there are positives and we've never talked about them. The positive is, I think so many people in dating feel like they're going through something alone. And that loneliness can manifest into mental illness. It can manifest into depression. You know, that downward spiral. So dating coaches have provided a sort of sounding board, a sort of companionship or even like therap for a lot of people who feel like they're going into dating alone. Now that's a positive. The negative of the industry is that dating coaches are not incentivized by true love, dating coaches are incentivized by turnover of clients. They're incentivized by money and they're incentivized by fast results.

00:50:03 - 00:55:22

Dating coaches are basically like politicians. Politicians just want to show the most progress while they're in office, right? But then after they leave office, they don't give a shit 'cause they just want to take credit. So that's why dating coaches want to give you the hacks and the tips and the tricks so that you get that immediate results, you get to sleep with more people, you get more matches, but they don't care about the long-lasting, true love. And that's the ugly side of dating dating coaching and matchmaking is that they are not incentivized by your true love. I remember when I was a number for someone that was paying. Basically, it's like a date that they're promising you to say, I got you a date, but was it the right fit? Did it actually help that person? Yeah, I could totally doesn't matter. You're just there to fill a quota. Exactly. So what's one personal or professional goal that you have for yourself this year? Well, we're talking more about you as a professional. Wow, okay. You think I was gonna go here? You're like, I don't have this one prepared. Okay, so Julie knows this also well and she's been very kind in pointing it out to me. But I do have, I do have career ADD. I do. I tend to bounce around from job to job. I have many, many interests, and I do them for a year or two and I get bored. But something that I wanted to really hunker down on this year is to think about what's one of my interests that I can put a stake in the ground a little bit more and grow from there versus like just spreading myself too thin, like I do every year. So, you know, I think about like my longest relationship has been with dateable and has been with Julie and we've created this amazing community in all this great content. This is the place where I want to keep watering this plant and see it grow and spend more energy and time into dateable. And I'm not saying this just because we're on the hard show right now. Next week, I'm just kidding. I'll be like, no, fitness is my one true love. That's how you deem multiple people and get away with it. That's what dating coaches teach you. But it's really important for me to focus my time and energy into dateable and our listeners ask us all the time. Do you have do you guys have other jobs? Do you what's next for data? And these are great questions because I know Julie and I really want to grow the shit out of dateable because we've learned so much from it. It hurts us that not more people can learn from it because if everybody listened to the show and can learn along with us, dating would be so fucking awesome. I like it might actually make me wanna be single again. If everybody was just dateable all the time, like how much fun would that be? But that is our mission. I'm very passionate about that. I mean, I'm sure that's music to our listeners air, that that's the area you want to double down on. But I think I've thought about this too. And I think it's actually interesting because I've also had many career paths in a way that they almost all can play into what ends up happening in the future. So I think you said that you get ADD, but we've been at this for 6 years. That's a pretty damn long term relationship. It's because I have you. It does. I accountability. I think if I was doing this solo too, it would be like hard to get that push, right? It is. Yeah. I would have been out like a year or two if I was me about myself. Podcast takes a lot of work, no joke. People have no idea what goes into it. And we have no idea who's listening. That's a problem. Well, that's always a good thing to hear. So back to relationships, but primarily back to you. Relationships are always, we heard this from our recent guest, doctor Gladys Otto about how relationships are essentially the biggest reflector of yourself. What have you learned about yourself in the last? I would say year that's really helped you grow as a person. Something that I've learned in the last year and recently is I have stopped being kind to myself or compassion to myself in a way that I would be to the ten year old me. And recently, I've been watching old home videos with my parents and we dug them up from when I was in elementary school, middle school. And I watched this girl on screen who was so serious who can't smile who thinks the world is so serious around her. And I just want her to laugh and smile and be a kid and be fun. I realize that my relationship reflects this part of my childhood where I forgot to have fun and keep things light and just be silly and I want to bring that UA back or even bring her out 'cause I was not that when I was ten and just be kind to her and say it's okay for you to just be a kid right now and tap into that because it's not that serious.

00:55:23 - 01:00:01

I love that. Tap into your inner child, but in a playful way. Yeah, literally tap into her. And then the very last question I have to close it out is what's one thing you'd like to see happen for the dateable community this year? So many things. One, I want to see a grow like no other. We need more people in this new movement. It's a dateable movement. It's a movement. And I want this community to kind of keep each other accountable. I think with dating what happens many times with dating communities is that people want to talk about their negative experiences. I would love for people to talk about their positive experiences, too. And say, when someone's had a bad experience, can say this also can happen. There are positive experiences. I don't want us to get into the Yelp reviews of a dating community where everybody just bitches all the time. I'm not saying that's us right now, but that's cool. It can happen, but what if we were to highlight some of the more positive moments because dating ultimately is one of the most important aspects of our lives and we're making very important decisions in choosing our potential partners. So we should be more thoughtful in the way that we think about dating and how we frame dating to ourselves and to each other. Well, this has been so fun. This is the first time we were so good. I was gonna say you're so good. You're so insightful and I learned so much, but actually I did, even though I know you super well and I probably do some of the answers to these. I think just the way you said it, it made me it made things click even in my own life. And I'm hoping that the other listeners can feel the same way and just hearing your journey and hearing how you've changed and you know people over day to day. It could be like a 20 year spread. People really do change a lot. So I think it's a really good reflection that nothing is permanent. I love that you said that. And you know, hopefully gives people hope of what's around the corner or makes them appreciate what's going on in their current lives. You're a wonderful interviewer, those questions were fantastic. Thanks to everybody who came up with questions. I can not wait to turn the tables next week on this Julie here because I already have so many questions for her. I would give a little nervous, but it's gonna be good. It's gonna be good. UA is the master tarot gator. Oh my God, I love that that's my reputation. Not just the interviewer, the interrogator. I'm gonna bring up shit from Julie was like 13. I'm gonna, like, she's all up on her face, called everyone. Tell me about Johnny Smith. From 6th grade. Oh my God, I just remember I made this is the teaser to come, but I remember I made the mistake of telling my parents that I got a big CD back of the day, you remember when it came out from someone and they signed it love Sam and they never let me live it down and from that day on, I did not share much. Oh shit. Maybe that could trip you into some of my privacy for a day. Who Sam? That matters. Yeah. Saving it for next week. I can't wait. That's the best teaser for next week. Find out who Sam is. So what's so insignificant in my life? And if you are the Sam, we're talking about, please call in. Well, that's it, right? That's it. That's it. We'll wrap this one up then. Oh, okay I'm gonna clean up my armpit sweat. Thanks so much. Thank you all for listening. We'll be back next week. And you know, if you enjoyed this episode, please give us a 5 star rating in Apple podcasts, and we think that you are the most dangerous person if you do that. Yep, tell a friend. That's how we get the movement started. Let's help you. Movement come to fruition of making everyone a better more dateable person. So when you're swiping on apps, you see fellow data pulls out there. That's the goal. Yes. Yes. Put that in your dating profile. Hashtag Steve dateable and see who else puts it in there. And then you know, then you know who's a secret code. And it's a convo starter if nothing else. Exactly. Yes, exactly. All right, we're gonna wrap this up. Stay tuned.

01:00:03 - 01:00:56

The dateable podcast is part of the frolic podcast network, find more podcasts you'll love at frolic media slash podcasts. Want to continue the conversation? First, follow us on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter with the handle at dateable podcast. Tagas in any post with a hashtag stay dateable and trust us. We look at all those posts. Then head over to our website dateable podcast dot com. There you'll find all the episodes as well as articles, videos and our coaching service with vetted industry experts. You can also find our premium Y series where we dissect analyze and offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums. We're also downloadable for free on Spotify, Apple podcasts, Google Play, overcast, stitch radio, and other podcast platforms. Your feedback is valuable to us, so don't forget to leave us a review. And most importantly, remember to. Stay dateable.

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